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  • From: negiliblek <negiliblek@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] personal land rights vs private property -some practical questions to Rain
  • Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:39:55 -0800 (PST)

Hi Rain,


I'm interested in how your company is setup and its by-laws because
there is a piece of property that I may attempt to setup in
a fashion in which the land use is clearly oriented towards
permaculture with as little as mechanized technology as possible.



I've seen some intentional communities' general structure but I've
never had the chance to ask someone these types of questions directly.



So, if you feel like responding, here goes:



1- What type of legal entity is it (LLC, C-corp, or a non-profit)?



2-Assuming the land is 100% paid off, how is the each person's financial
share determined as they join (past purchase value, current tax appraisal,
third party appraisal)?



3- When another person(s) wishes to share the land, how much do they
put down, what payment periods, and what problems/solutions did you
discover along the way regarding these methods?



4- Assuming there are two parties who've paid their share which comes
to 100% of the property; when a third party comes along and wishes to
join to use, say 10% of the land, how is this third party
accepted/rejected and who gives up the 10% to make room for the third
party?



5-When a party leaves/stops using the land, what happens (is the party
refunded all monies or is all monies forfeited and who gets the
forfeited money)?



6- Say a party is accepted, moves in, gets half their work on their
land done, then leaves the land half finished and a bunch of rotting
building material behind -how is this dealt with?


7- What if one person wants to grow thistles and everyone else is against
this?


To all of those who pay "taxes", you don't own your property -you rent it.
Try not paying and find out what happens -you'll be evicted.

Yes, that ties you to a given system whether you want to support that system
or not (slavery?); whether you like sending your money to kill people you've
never met or not.

Maybe there are people out there that need killing, but I kinda like to have
a DIRECT say so before I buy that particular bullet.  If your State's
National Guard is killing, you're paying. If you honesty believe GW was
elected both times, go ahead and tell me my vote against him was a direct say
so, but then you'd be thinking we in the US live in a democracy, not a
Republic (for which it stands, one nation under God, etc). Yes, I had a
Russian roommate who spent 5 years in a gulag near the Chinese border trying
to get to the United States. He was the one who told me the US is more of a
police state that the former USSR after living here a few years; no he
COULDN'T return home.

Yes, you will have to spend a portion of your work day (?Slavery -work
against your will?) doing that killing (through your financial contribution)
as long as you're tied via property taxes (rent) to that system.

Here's my specific point just in case somebody wants a specific point: If
private property ends up meaning people have no where to live (no ground to
stand on, or lie down upon) unless they pay rent/taxes to someone, then all
people in that system are slaves to that system whether they want to be or
not -simply by existing, by being born, by breathing air. And will be forced
to work only in a way found acceptable by that system, whether they want to
or not (this is slavery's definition -to work against one's will, to be a
commodity of labor in order to have a place to exist in).

To be homeless is to be illegal in the US. To be not homeless means you're
supporting actions you may find heinous whether you want to or not. If this
is what a system of private property leads to, I'm not too sure I want to
keep my property private.

And if you're still feeling smug, like I did about my 35 acres, wait until
your property taxes get raised to the point where only the super rich can pay
property taxes. Then tell me how you love private property systems (who
knows, maybe you'll still tell me, like an abused spouse, that its not so
bad, it could be worse in other systems). It's already happened to some
family farms in this country and in some cities on both coasts in the US (and
I'm not talking about prime property in Malibu).

Luckily, there is still a solution in the US, non-profits can own land and
not pay taxes. But that maybe taken away from us as was attempted in the late
1990's in Denver  -a ballot initiative to make all non-profits pay property
taxes. In direct democracy, this initiative lost by 95% (who knows what the
other 5% were thinking) -but if a similar Federal bill gets passed in our
great Republic and our Representatives get lobbied/bribed just right, all of
us will live in a world similar to "Sten", government by the Corp/for the
Corp, and the myth of private property for the individual will burn like a
fevered dream ...."if only I could find a way to get mega rich enough, then I
could be free enough to own a piece of my own land".

 And if you can't figure out how I made the leap from non-profits being
forced to pay taxes to Government by Corps and the loss of the individual to
own property, just figure my thinking is really twisted -you'll sleep better
at night.

That's right, just take a little snooze and figure it ain't possible to get
from point A to K. You'll feel better and we won't get in any nasty jabbing
fests. Otherwise, do your own thinking and see how I got there.  If you just
can't -you can't. Any amount of talking and typing by me isn't going to get
you there.




>From lflj@intrex.net Wed Nov 12 23:57:29 2008
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Be nice please
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Food Forests wrote:
>> Subject: Be nice please
> Permaculture is about care of the earth, earth of people and sharing..not
> flaming. Can everyone please be nice. Im keen on debate but not digs.
>
>> Pango
> --------------
>
> Hi Pango, word up yo-
> sure, that request is a fine sentiment...but...
> i'm not expecting it to happen on this list, given what's found in the
> archives:
>
> Using the parlance of the recent US election, there are a lot of
> "mavericks" on this list, earthy people who react against what they believe
> is wrong, and sometimes go ad hominem on each other. this includes some of
> the most experienced PDC teachers, thinkers, and... what?... just like
> crocodile bill is famous for doing himself. this is a good place to stay
> attentive, be responsible for your own demeanor, and be prepared for for
> when folks it up, all prickly-pioneer species-stylie.
>
> if you're looking for people being nice to each other online, a
> "compassionate communication" listserv might be a good balance to this one.

Larry Santoyo hath decreed in an earlier aeon that its cool to be friendly
but candid and forthright, i.e. outspoken,
not mincing words, getting one's point across effectively and completely
while indulging in unrestrained invective
bordering on unredeemable blundering into outright verbal warfare.

So be it.

Pango has made a good point though and that helps shore up the balance of
power in this durable forum.

LFLondon



  • Re: [permaculture] personal land rights vs private property -some practical questions to Rain, negiliblek, 11/12/2008

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