Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - Re: [permaculture] So what do you really think about long term climate change...

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: lbsaltzman@aol.com
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] So what do you really think about long term climate change...
  • Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:36:38 -0400

I concur. I used to work in documentary films and saw an incredible shot
taken on the Serengeti in the 1940's. From a slight rise the cameraman
panned 360 degrees and there were huge herds of Zebra, antelope etc. in every
direction to the horizon. You couldn't see any bare ground. We can only
imagine what it was like in the Pleistocene.

Furthermore, I have been reading the scientific literature on global warming
extensively. There is some work on methane from animals, but I can't find any
scientists doing research who suggest that is anywhere near the problem that
the burning of fossil fuels is. If you want solid info on global warming
from the scientists doing the research check out www.realclimate.org.


-----Original Message-----
From: toby@patternliteracy.com
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] So what do you really think about long term
climate change...


I'm very impressed with the quality of thought in this thread. As much as we
are enamored of magic bullets, like "if we stop eating meat, global warming
will be solved," the reality is vastly more complex, and the responses show
that this group can think beyond simple slogans. People in the developed
world do consume far more meat than we need to, but animals have been
producing methane in huge quantities since gut flora evolved. The animals,
and meat eating, are not the issue. I think the problem stems in part from
how much petroleum or coal is used in raising the animal. A natural grazer
or browser is simply recycling carbon in forms and quantities that have been
around for hundreds of millions of years. If we're just substituting cattle
for bison, there's little net change in the form or amount of carbon. Think
of the immense herds of bison and other grazers that roamed before the
industrial age. But when we use oil to raise grain to raise cattle, and in
addition don't recycle the manure, then we've got a problem.

The trouble lies in introducing new (or really old, actually) carbon into
the cycle. Net gain in greenhouse gas is the result. Stop using so much
petroleum, especially to grow food (thus boosting population to
unsustainable levels) and the methane and CO2 go away. With Peak Oil, this
is another problem that will sort itself out in time. Whether we survive it
is another question.


Toby
http://patternliteracy.com



On 3/26/07 6:11 AM, "Marimike6@cs.com" wrote:

> "Anyone have plan ideas for rocky, brushy, hillside
> lifestyle that doesn't have humans harvesting other animals? Does that
> even make sense?"
>
> Kathyann-- Your sheep and goats are minimally invasive. And there are no
> crops that can successfully utilize your bare, brushy hillsides-- unless you
> want
> to get into specialty items like capers and herbs, or lemons. Even then, you
> need manure to grow your herbs.
>
> So I wouldn't worry. What's really wrecking the environment is confined
> animal feedlot operations-- factory farms. The managers resist even the most
> elementary suggestions as to how to manage their waste products. And they
> are
> light
> years away from the concept that there ARE no waste products-- only products
> being put to improper uses.
>
> A single one of these egregious "hogs" fouls the environment at a million
> times the rate your goats and sheep do. All your herds do is convert
> biofuels
> to
> energy and small amounts of soil amendments.
>
> Have you heard about goatherds being employed in California in roadside
> brush
> maintenance? There are several municipalities now that hire Bo Peeps to put
> their herds to work grazing down the brush on the road margins. It's cheaper
> than hiring groundskeepers with power mowers. Maybe your goats can find
> employment in the nearest big city!
>
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at AOL.com.




Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page