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  • From: John Rintoul <beecd AT icloud.com>
  • To: Scott Sipe <cscotts AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: "ocba AT lists.ibiblio.org" <ocba AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [ocba] Hmmm -Hmmmm
  • Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 05:33:47 -0400

Like Scott I am really enjoying this discussion. Thanks to everyone who has chimed in. We need to hear from all points of view and all levels of experience.

Also, like Scott, I think beekeepers need to rely on evidence based research. To that end I encourage every OCBA beekeeper to send a check or make a donation to the NCSU Apiculture Program. Even a small donation $5 - $10 - $20 will help support important bee research that will help us all understand more about what is going on in our apiaries. 

Go to http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/ to make a donation today. 

John Rintoul
(919) 414-4071

On Jun 11, 2015, at 2:21 AM, Scott Sipe <cscotts AT gmail.com> wrote:

I've been enjoying this conversation very much. I'm a first-year beekeeper, and I had some thoughts and questions about some of your proposals.


On Jun 10, 2015, at 8:31 PM, friedjf at verizon.net wrote:
Caleb Haynes asked if I was proposing something with my bee-centric post. I wasn't then, but now I am. Here are several proposals that seem closer to what is natural than present practices:
1. Instead of feeding bees sucrose (which some beekeepers describe as nutrition-less candy), use honey instead.

a) Does the science or other evidence support the statement that feeding sugar is akin to feeding "nutrition-less candy"?

b) I've read that feeding honey from sources other than your own hives is risky, as it provides an excellent vector for disease and other hive pests. Is this accurate?


2. Instead of opening hives often, learn about the goings-on of bee hives mainly through videos, simulations, demonstrations, etc. Develop or use less intrusive, fiber-optic options for viewing hives unless it is necessary to enter a hive.

a) Opinions seem unanimous that it is better to open an already established hive as little as possible. Is there scientific evidence to back this up? I assume there is evidence, but I have not read it.


3. Reject serving clients whose pollination needs are mono-cultural. Encourage them to grow companion crops and to set aside diverse pollinator-friendly spaces that are proportional to their main crop.

a) This certainly seems like a good idea, but probably does not ultimately affect many hobbyist or small-time beekeepers! I would go further and say that there need to be inspections or some kind of limitations when moving bees across the country. The chance of spreading pathogens and pests across the continent, and even the world, seems to me to be as dangerous as anything in modern beekeeping.


4. If helping bees to survive is important, start with your own hive. Don't heavily harvest honey and then hope that the bees will replenish their stores before winter. Make sure the hive is fully stocked several months before winter and then only remove the excess.

a) I see proponents of natural beekeeping make similar statements very frequently. Before moveable frame hives, harvesting honey necessitated destroying (or seriously damaging) the hive. Do today's beekeepers (leaving aside the inexperienced) regularly harvest so much honey so as to leave the hive depleted for winter? You say to only take the excess--I guess that's the tricky part--how much, exactly, is "excess"?

It would seem to me to be simple economics--keeping a hive alive over winter should be better than killing a hive for a bit more honey. I guess I'm not sure of what the real "average" beekeeper practice is here.

Do beekeepers regularly take too much honey?


5. That Italian method of getting honey (taking one frame and breaking off pieces at a dinner) seemed less stressful than removing many frames, extracting those frames and returning empty frames. Reminds me of when my teenaged sons would vacuum the contents of my refrigerator between dinner and breakfast and then complain that there was nothing to eat.

a) Producing comb and wax is much more energy consumptive than producing food stores (honey). Is there any evidence that destroying comb is better than taking honey?


I don't have a good suggestion for long-distance moves by trailer loads of hives, but it seems harmful and highly unnatural. Maybe since people are becoming loca-vores, they also could endorse and consume products that are "loca-hive".

Honey bees are an invasive species in North America. The European honeybee is not an entirely "natural" species as it has evolved in close proximity to humans for thousands of years. The only flowering plants that really require honey bee pollination are likewise invasive species to North America. Personally, I see intrinsic value in trying to preserve unique ecosystems, and thus I see an intrinsic value in trying to support local species whenever is possible. It does seem a bit odd to talk, on the one hand, about defending what is natural, while also trying to protect an invasive species that has been intensively managed and bred by humans for thousands of years. Nobody is trying to protect kudzu along the highway or hydrilla in the Eno, probably because they don't also provide much for human usage!

Agriculture, based primarily around annual crops that have been developed over 10,000 years, and bee culture with bees living in wooden boxes are by their very nature unnatural practices. The ancient Egyptians practiced moving hives up the Nile, starting in southern Egypt and moving north as more crops and flowers came into bloom. They were different in scale from the commercial beekeepers today but not so much in practice or goals. Transporting hives has a long history!

Ultimately, if Varroa mites (from Asia) and Small Hive Beetles (from Sub-Saharan Africa) hadn't been imported to North America, I doubt we would be having this same conversation, or at least, the immediacy of some of these issues would not be evident. Langstroth and Dzierzon both intensely managed the hives they studied and did not have the same problems we have today.

I'm extremely interested in Marty Hanks' efforts (and those of others like him) to breed survivor stock. I would like to do the same with my hives as I get more experienced. Keeping weak hives that are highly susceptible to Varroa alive only by intensive treatment seems like a bad idea.

Personally, I became interested in beekeeping for a number of reasons--as a general interest in bees, a fun hobby, a chance of getting honey, a fascinating historical topic, etc.--but I'm not really sure that I'm doing anything more generally useful, helpful, or altruistic. It would be very nice if I'm doing something beneficial, but I'll take that as an added benefit!

Best,
Scott

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  • [ocba] Hmmm -Hmmmm, Scott Sipe, 06/11/2015
    • Re: [ocba] Hmmm -Hmmmm, John Rintoul, 06/11/2015

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