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  • From: Robert M Schacht <bobschacht AT juno.com>
  • To: corpus-paul AT franklin.oit.unc.edu
  • Subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
  • Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 08:29:24 -0700




On Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:42:55 -0400 "Liz Fried" <lizfried AT umich.edu>
writes:
>> From: Jeffrey B. Gibson
>
>>
>> Liz Fried wrote:
>>
>> > Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
>> >
>> > > .... For instance, it is by no means
>> > > clear that pre-existence of Jesus is assumed or taught in the
>> > > Christ hymn in Philippians...
>> > >
>> > Dear Jeffrey,
>> > Please explain to me why you do not think the hymn in Phillippians
>> > implies that Jesus was pre-existent. .....

[Jeffrey replies:]
>>
>> Not to be flippant, but I'd first like you to tell me why you or
>> anyone should assume
>> that the Christ hymn in Philllipains **does** make such an
>assumption.

[Liz replies:]
>
>The verses describe Jesus Christ as having thoughts prior to being
>born.
>

[Jeffrey:]
>>
>> As for GJohn, yes that **would** be, I fear, off topic. But just
>> one hint, what is
>> "with" God, and what is asserted as having the nature of God
>> ("what the word was God
>> was" to use C.H. Dodd's felicitous phrasing) is NOT the man
>> Jesus, but the Word.,
>> which from the point of view of the prologue of GJohn, only later
>> comes to "dwells
>> among us" in Jesus.

[Liz:]
>
>Then let's get back to 1 Cor. 8:6. What does this verse mean?
>If Paul is saying it is Jesus, not Torah, then the talmudic legend
>asserts
>the torah existed before creation.
>I think that is what is being said in the prologue to John too, that
>it is
>Jesus not torah. But the torah is prior to creation. It is from Prov.
>8.
>So why don't you think these verses assert Jesus' preexistence?
>
>Liz


I think that the difficulty here is about what you both mean by "Jesus,"
which seems to shift as this dialogue progresses. Perhaps our English
vocabulary is not well-suited to discussing pre-existant forms.

Pre-existant form #1: "Jesus" consisted of a dis-embodied consciousness,
capable of having thoughts, self-aware, aware of difference between self
and other

Pre-existant form #2: "Jesus" consisted of something else (Torah? Logos?)
that was not necessarily conscious, having thoughts, self aware, etc.

Pre-existant form #3: "Jesus" was not something with an independent
existance, but was an attribute of some other entity that differentiated
when he was "made flesh".

Unfortunately, we do not have much of a vocabulary for discussing
disembodied spirits. We tend to operate on analogies with physical bodies
(pre-existant form #1), and we get lost when we try to talk about things
such as the trinity and pre-existant form #3.
Doesn't this take us straight back to platonism? What is it's typology of
disembodied spirits?

Another problem is jumping to conclusions from a limited datum. For
example, I gather that from your Christ hymn in Philippians datum, it
looks like you conclude that they must mean something like pre-existant
form #1.

Bob
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