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Subject: Compost Teas: 24 hour, EM, IM, BD & fermented plant extracts

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  • From: Merla Barberie <herbnmerla AT supersat2.net>
  • To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [Compostteas] Re: Compostteas digest, Vol 1 #91 - 10 msgs
  • Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:42:51 -0700

I am "earthfroglady" at herbnmerla AT supersat2.net on yahoo.com. I just tried
to join and "compost tea" was not available in a search. Please join me.
It's always such a hassle. Thanks

Merla Barberie

compostteas-request AT lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Compostteas digest, Vol 1 #90 - 11 msgs (m.norsen AT attbi.com)
> 2. Migration to yahoo (Tom Jaszewski)
> 3. IMPORTANT NOTICE!. WE ARE MOVING TO MAKE IT EASIER (Jeff Lowenfels)
> 4. Black spot in apples (Graeme Reid)
> 5. FW: [Compostteas] Effective Microorganisms (Ryan, Matthew)
> 6. re: Compost tea sampling (Soil Foodweb, Inc.)
> 7. Re: Corn Gluten (The Grahams) (Soil Foodweb, Inc.)
> 8. Re: Soil: CT vs Organism Foods (Lmvine1 AT cs.com) (Soil Foodweb, Inc.)
> 9. Re: Doc Ing-HAM and the feeding rate (Soil Foodweb, Inc.)
> 10. Re: the feeding rate (Soil Foodweb, Inc.)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: m.norsen AT attbi.com
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Cc: Scott AT happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu, Alexander AT happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu
> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 19:18:30 +0000
> Subject: [Compostteas] Re: Compostteas digest, Vol 1 #90 - 11 msgs
>
> Scott and all about DO2 meters Before the meter, happy,
> but dumb? Yes the meter can ruin your family life until
> you get it and brewer under control. Not having a meter
> does not prevent anaerobic tea. Having a meter does not
> prevent anaerobic tea. Having a meter and not having it
> or the brew under conrol may destroy martial bliss.
>
> None of this is news.
>
> The meter- be ready to let the meter settle down before
> you start to tweek it or use it. Dry and exposed to air
> it takes 5 to 15 + minutes, seems like forever to settle
> down when first turned on. Then calibrate. Then use. If
> the probe stays static in CT for a few minutes bacteria
> or fungi or crud builds up on the probe which then
> returns a depressed O2 reading. Its gotta move rather
> briskly in the CT to get a good reading. A reading of
> 3.0 static can raise to 5.+ with brisk movment.
>
> You are probably ahead of me on this. I hope so.
>
> The CT will go anaerobic in spite of all you can do if
> you over load the nutrients. I think Carol Eddington
> and others who have worked with CT have reported that
> less is better.
>
> Crowding a lot of tea base (compost) and nutrients will
> look good during the early hour or so of a brew, but
> when the bacteria begin to thrive and begin to reach the
> numbers you want if there is still a lot of nutrition
> left they will use O2 faster than typical brewers can
> furnish it. Faster than water can absorb from LOTS of
> aeration activity. At least I think that is what cause
> a couple of my brews to go down in O2.
>
> Finally there are many things about CT that I have yet
> to learn so consider all of those and tell me if these
> ideas helped. Jeffs "list" is a learning experience.
>
> Regarding talking to your friend about CT, always mask
> your true frustration with joy and optimism mixed with
> great stuff and flowers you bring her, with evident
> love, from your garden. Don't mention that CT did it.
> Let her guess.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: "Tom Jaszewski" <tomj AT lvcm.com>
> To: <Compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:17:41 -0700
> Subject: [Compostteas] Migration to yahoo
>
> We are looking to migrate to yahoo groups.
> follow this link and sign up....
> JOIN NOW, IT'S EASY:
>
> 1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/i?i=SShV4j-sDim1Ty6rmJdNR-RvKRg&e=tomj%40lvcm%2Ecom
>
> (If clicking doesn't work, "Cut" and "Paste" the line above into your
> Web browser's address bar.)
>
> -OR-
>
> 2) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send"
> in your email program
>
> If you do not wish to join the compost_tea group, please
> ignore this invitation.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff AT gardener.com>
> To: <compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 15:19:23 -0800
> Subject: [Compostteas] IMPORTANT NOTICE!. WE ARE MOVING TO MAKE IT EASIER
>
> FOLKS,
>
> Many have complained about the list software. And it is bad. Perry Clutts
> and Tom Jaszewski looked into YAHOO and it is much better. MUCH BETTER.
>
> So, as list "owner" I have made an executive decision: As of today we are
> going to try and migrate this list to YAHOO as it is easier to administer
> for us, and easier to use for you. For example, you can use your own
> computer settings...html or plain text or whatever. You can post files such
> as test results. You can post photo's. We can have polls and all sorts of
> other stuff.
>
> WE KNOW THIS IS A PAIN IN THE BUTT FOR SOME, BUT IT WILL BE EASIER ONCE YOU
> ARE IN THE NEW SYSTEM.
>
> Sooo, here is the general info: You will have to join Yahoo. It is free:
>
> Post message: compost_tea AT yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe: compost_tea-subscribe AT yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe: compost_tea-unsubscribe AT yahoogroups.com
> List owner: compost_tea-owner AT yahoogroups.com
>
> This is very easy, free and won't hurt. After that, go to the site and see
> what we put up to show how much easier and better it really is.
>
> And, yes, Dr. Elaine and her staff have been notified!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:44:44 +1200
> From: Graeme Reid <herbmark.nz AT xtra.co.nz>
> Organization: Medicinal herb production and marketing
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [Compostteas] Black spot in apples
>
> Dear CT enthusiasts ,
>
> I am an organic grower in New Zealand and a collegue of Bill Quinn .
>
> I currently produce two certified products for commercial growers in
> NZ , one being a seaweed product for foliar feeding and one being a
> solid vermicast product .
>
> We are currently building a CT machine to supply our existing client
> base .
>
> I recently visited a large producing area of apples in NZ with their
> main problem being Black spot .
>
> Is there anyone out there that has had experience with the use of
> compost teas in the commercial organic apple industry who can give me
> some feedback on sucess rates as well as application details .
>
> Any experience anyone has had here would be of great benefit and give
> these apple growers a starting point .
>
> Regards
> Graeme Reid
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> From: "Ryan, Matthew" <matthew.ryan AT rodaleinst.org>
> To: "'Compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org'" <Compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: FW: [Compostteas] Effective Microorganisms
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:45:35 -0400
>
> Dear Compost Tea Brewers,
>
> Last week I sent out this message about EM (effective microorganisms) and I
> received one reply about how incomparable EM is to compost tea as far as
> species diversity. But I still have a few questions.
>
> The first, of course, is about Elaine's response that Mr. Teuton forwarded
> me. In it she describes EM as strictly bacterial, but that contradicts my
> understanding of the classification of certain microorganisms (listed in the
> message below). Could someone please attempt to clarify this.
>
> My second question is related to CT recipes. Has anyone tried to
> incorporate EM into their CT recipe? As far as the cost of EM, I have
> access to a very large quantity of EM that was donated to us at The Rodale
> Institute. If there is anyone out there that would like to try it out, I
> would be willing to send it to you (you would have to pay for the postage)
> if I was to get the OK from the distributor, which I don't think will be a
> problem.
>
> In the mean time have a nice day!
>
> Matthew Ryan
> Research Technician
> The Rodale Institute
> 611 Siegfriedale Road
> Kutztown, PA 19530
> matthew.ryan AT rodaleinst.org
> (610) 683-1405
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan, Matthew
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 4:34 PM
> To: 'Frank Teuton'
> Cc: 'Compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org'
> Subject: RE: [Compostteas] Effective Microorganisms
>
> Hello Frank,
>
> Thanks for the response from Elaine about EM, but now I am only more
> confused.
>
> In the response Elaine states:
>
> "EM has no fungi. Just bacteria and actinobacteria (used to be called
> actinomycetes, but they ARE NOT fungi). There are No Fungi in EM."
>
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/compostteas/2002q2/000105.html
>
> Now I am looking at the label for the EM that I have and it lists the
> organisms that are supposed to be in it. Included are Aspergillus oryzae,
> Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Candida utilis. I was always under the impression
> that these organisms are indeed fungi. Is there something that I am
> missing?
>
> Matthew Ryan
> Research Technician
> The Rodale Institute
> 611 Siegfriedale Road
> Kutztown, PA 19530
> matthew.ryan AT rodaleinst.org
> (610) 683-1405
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Teuton [mailto:fteuton AT sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:25 PM
> To: Ryan, Matthew
> Subject: Re: [Compostteas] Effective Microorganisms
>
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/compostteas/2002q2/000105.html
>
> FYI
>
> Frank Teuton
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:36:27 -0500
> From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info AT soilfoodweb.com>
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
> Subject: [Compostteas] re: Compost tea sampling
>
> Hi to the list -
>
> Jeff Lowenfels wrote about the tea going anaerobic and thus getting no
> active fungi when his sample sat someplace too long. We see this quite
> often. We always put the date of arrival of your sample on the
> prelimninary SFI report form so you can tell if it sat too long. Get your
> money back if they don't get it to us overnight. We point out to you, on
> the final SFI report form (it
> takes me a day or so to look at the results, but you get the preliminary
> report in 5 to 12 hours of the arrival of the tea in the lab), whether it
> is likely that the tea went anaerobic during shipping, or not.
>
> We're doing some research showing that when the tea drops below 5.5 to 6.0
> ppm, the bacteria that are growing then will attack the fungal hyphae. We
> do not detect the fungi as active any longer. The possible mechansims for
> this are many, and we are trying to determine which mechanism for the loss
> of activity is the important one.
>
> We have some great pictures of the fungi being attacked, so anyone coming
> to my talks in the next couple months will see these pictures. They will
> undoubtedly be in the next edition of the Compost Tea Brewing Manual.
>
> But please note the oxygen levels where the fungi are attacked by bacteria.
> If you have your tea maker in the hot sun, and you put normal amounts of
> your starter nutrients into the tea maker, you may be going anaerobic.
> Bruce Elliott pointed out to me the oxygen tables on the USGS web site
> (Table 6.2) where you can see for yourself that at 21 to 27 degrees C, at
> the elevation of
> Tempe, AZ, it is not possible to have had an aerobic tea brew with
> additions of sugars, yeasts or barley malt.
>
> Adding ice packs - makes shipping more expensive, and usually the ice is
> completely melted by the time it gets here. The only way to tell if it
> really helps is to ship the same tea with ice, and without ice. Comparison
> of the organism counts after they get here would be useful information. I
> recall doing this a time or two, and I recall (I just passed my 50th
> birthday, so the
> memory can be faulty) that the ice made no difference in the counts.
>
> Off to Las Vegas now, to do a talk for Helena Chemical Co!
>
> Elaine
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:46:55 -0500
> From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info AT soilfoodweb.com>
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
> Subject: [Compostteas] Re: Corn Gluten (The Grahams)
>
> > Hi The Grahams -
>
> What exactly is corn gluten?
>
> It is a complex carbon food resource, which is...... fungal food.
> Manufacturers add a fair amount of nitrogen to it, so that as the fungi,
> and some bacteria, use it as a food resource, they don't tie up all the of
> nitrogen in your soil and kill all your plants.
>
> What's the correct ratio of nitrogen to balance the high C material? Do
> you suppose the makers of the product checked this out before they sold it?
> The balance used for the lawn is correct ratio for the grasses you want,
> IF.....
>
> If you have a healthy foodweb in your lawn. But, the ratio is correct for
> grass. Not perennial plants.
>
> What if all the organisms in your soil were killed, or dormant, or sick?
> Will addition of corn gluten work then? No. Corn gluten is just a food
> resource for the organisms that should be there. Hard to see good results
> if you don't have the organisms present in the soil to do the work for you.
> So, with the corn gluten you should? Right, apply tea so you have the
> needed organisms
> to do the job.
>
> So, will addition of corn gluten to tea be useful? It should feed fungi,
> correct? The excess N will be taken up by the bacteria and fungi. Once in
> the soil, as long as you have the protozoa adn beneficial nematodes and
> microarthropods, that N will be cycled into plant available forms.
>
> But what is the form of N in corn gluten? Will that N help Fusarium or
> Rhizoctonia? Nitrate helps the Fusarium, ammonium helps Rhizotonia.
> Better not be either of those forms.....
>
> More questions? Please e-mail.....
>
> Elaine
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:53:02 -0500
> From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info AT soilfoodweb.com>
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
> Subject: [Compostteas] Re: Soil: CT vs Organism Foods (Lmvine1 AT cs.com)
>
> > Hi Dan -
>
> As long as you have the diversity of organisms you need, then addition of
> the food to the soil works fine. Compost tea is a way to deliver food and
> the organisms to plant surfaces - both above ground and belowground - to
> soil, to ponds,
> pools, lakes, etc.
>
> How do you know if you have the needed diversity? Typically, the higher
> the total bacteria and total fungi biomass, the better your diversity. Not
> a perfect relationship, but typically we can detect disease outbreaks, and
> point them out to you.
>
> With many soils, lack of diversity is an issue. Thus, applying compost, or
> compost tea will deliver an inoculum of organisms that can improve the
> diversity of your soil. Build that diversity over time.
>
> Does compost work better than compost tea? Compost has more food resources
> than tea, but it is harder to transport, more expensive to apply than
> compost tea. But, your choice what you want to do.......
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Elaine
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:06:01 -0500
> From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info AT soilfoodweb.com>
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
> Subject: [Compostteas] Re: Doc Ing-HAM and the feeding rate
>
> > Frank is correct. And thank you Frank for pointing it out. The name is
> > an English one, not Norwegian.
>
> I'm a ham...... An Ing-ham. Thank you for getting it straight.
> Although, I'm bad with names too, so I can't get bent out of shape if
> people don't catch the "h" instead of an "r".
>
> Yes, the feeding drip is an excellent idea in the summer. Not needed when
> temperatures are cool, but in the summer, it may be a very good idea.
>
> Please test, though, as you try this out to make certain we still get good
> organism numbers, ok?
>
> Testing from a small operations' point of view is as follows:
>
> 1. Brew the tea the way you want to test, and record color, smell,
> temperature, foam, and feel.
>
> 2. Brew a second time, and if you get the same results (color, smell,
> temperature, foam and feel), then send a tea in to determine total and
> active bacteria, total and active fungi (about $83 if you fill out the
> submission form and send it with the sample and payment).
>
> 3. If you have good organisms numbers, you're set. If things are too low,
> we will work with you (you get 15 minutes of FREE consultation with SFI
> each time you sample) to figure out what went haywire and how to improve
> it. You go back to step 1 and try again.
>
> You should, fairly inexpensively, get to the point where you are making
> good tea. Maybe once a year, when you start up in the spring, you test
> your tea with SFI just to make sure the tea maker is doing a good job,
> nothings plugged, messed up, etc.
>
> OK?
>
> Elaine
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:32:46 -0500
> From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info AT soilfoodweb.com>
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
> Subject: Re: [Compostteas] the feeding rate
>
> We all need to rememberthat Scott is in the middle of winter. In the US,
> we're in the middle of the summer, and hot and dry it is...
>
> When the temperature is low, I don't see any good reason to drip feed, but
> I'm convincible.
>
> thnk of the organisms in your tea as being just like you. If the water
> temp is 63 F, would you think of reproduction? Not very often, or only
> under the right circumstances? Same for them.
>
> Rates of reproduction slow down as it gets colder. Fewer of the mass of
> bacteria or fungi are interested in reproduction the colder it gets.
>
> In soil, there are cold-loving bacteria and fungi that are selected to wake
> up and grow when things get cold. Those bacteria and fungi are in your
> tea, but they take longer than 24 hours to wake up and start to grow.
> Typically, they take 3 to 4 weeks to wake up. Once they are growing, they
> have no competition, no predators, and they really take off. The most
> rapid rates of
> decomposition occur in the winter, under the snow. If the soil is frozen,
> these guys shut-down until the soil thaws.
>
> If you add food to cold water, reproduction in those conditions will be
> slow, gaining slowly in speed until the cold-lovers finally get going. We
> don't brew long enough, typically, to reach that point. But we could get
> there, if you brew for three or four days when it's cool or cold. The
> oxygen probe will tell you when they finally start to grow.
>
> So, while you hate that DO probe, thing of the expensive testing you would
> have to be doing with us to figure all this out if you didn't have that DO
> probe!!! So, the DO probe becomes a money saver, and a stern taskmaster.
> It does not lie, and it tells you the truth all the time. Ok, you have to
> figure out how to calibrate it, but that's like learning how fast to drive
> your
> tractor through the field in order to apply fertilizer at the correct rate.
>
> I'd love to put a SFI lab near you, but we have to have the data to make it
> clear to all your neighbors that they need to be testing too, or the lab
> can't stay alive. So, which comes first, the sample load to support the
> lab, or the lab to convince the growers to do this testing? ???
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Elaine
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> Compostteas mailing list
> Compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/compostteas
>
> End of Compostteas Digest




  • [Compostteas] Re: Compostteas digest, Vol 1 #91 - 10 msgs, Merla Barberie, 07/29/2002

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