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cc-jo - Re: [CC-Jordan] Comments on CCPL Jordanian Arabic License

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Subject: CC Jordan

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  • From: Rami Olwan <ramiolwan AT yahoo.com>
  • To: Ahmad Gharbeia <gharbeia AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: cc-jo AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [CC-Jordan] Comments on CCPL Jordanian Arabic License
  • Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 03:57:47 -0700 (PDT)

Hi Ahmad Gharbeia again,

 

Thanks for comments. Below you will find my answers to your questions in the same order you have raised them and as follows:

 

1) Translation of “Legal Code” to Arabic

 

Doesn't "صيغة قانونية" denote "legal code"?
I'm not asserting, but rather hinting.
What's the term used in legislative environments to refer to a مشروع
قانون and its drafted "code"?

 

No, it does make the needed legal meaning. The word “code” has been recently applied in the context of law (cyber law), and it is of course the brainchild of professor Lawrence Lessig in his renowned first book “Code and Other Law of Cyberspace”. 

 

His main argument that the law is not as previously thought is the only main player in cyberspace as the code (technology) along with other factors plays an equal role to determine what we could do and not do in cyberspace. Professor Lessig saw the need not to concentrate on the legal issues alone (human readable license), but to give an equal importance to the technology as well (machine readable license). Understanding this background and the origin of the word “code” will make it make difficult for us to translate it properly to Arabic.

 

We cannot follow any of your suggestions since Creative Commons Public License (CCPL) is neither a draft nor it is regarded as a real “code” as we use here in Jordan and other civil legal system (“civil code” and “ criminal code”).

 

We did not translate “legal code” in version 01 as we did not find any proper word for it, but we did translate it in version 03 and tried to make it sound acceptable. I am open for any other suggestions based on my explanation from you or any other reviewer.

 

 

2) Is the Jordanian CCPL version 0.3 “unported”?

 

One comment though: I'm assuming that you started from the "unported"
version of the license, right? The one worded in accordance with IP
treaties, not the "US" version which is localised to USA jurisdiction.

 

Yes, the license that we relied on is “unported” and non country specific, and this was one of the main reasons behind drafting version 03 of the CCPL.

 

When Creative Commons (CC) launched their licensing project in December 2002, the licenses were drafted solely on the U.S Copyright Law (Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998), but this has changed toward the end of 2003 as they became more interested in internalization of their project around the world to each specific jurisdiction.

 

The new CC licenses rely on international copyright treaties mainly the Berne Convention of 1886 as amended, the Rome Convention of 1961, the WIPO Copyright Treaty of  1996, and the WIPO Performance and Phonograms Treaty of 1996.

 

We did not have any problem when we adopted the CCPL license to the Jordanian copyright system since Jordan signed most international copyright treaties and further entered into a Free Trade Agreement with the U.S (JUSFTA) that went into force on 17 December 2001.

 

I hope this answers your question and I am happy to discuss any other matter.

 

Best,

 

RO
--- On Fri, 10/10/08, Ahmad Gharbeia <gharbeia AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ahmad Gharbeia <gharbeia AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [CC-Jordan] Comments on CCPL Jordanian Arabic License
To: ramiolwan AT yahoo.com
Cc: cc-jo AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 9:18 PM

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رسالة Rami Olwan في 10/10/08 17:46:
> Dear Ahmad Gharbeia, 


> Many thanks for your interest in the CC Jordan project. We need many
reviewers like you who have specific comments about the license and its
translation. I am sorry I cannot reply in Arabic since my keyboard is in Latin
characters. I have read your comments and I believe some of them are quite
important. I am not going to go into detail now, but will give a general answer
to stimulate the discussion further until we provide detailed specific answer on
each comment you have raised if we deem that is necessary. 

It's my pleasure. I've been interested in the license for years and
I'm
glad to Jordanians undertaking this effort to ease the way for other
Arab initiatives to follow.


> As for the title of the license, it is true that we have mixed between the
license itself and the legal code. We have tried to find a proper translation
for both of them, but unfortunately we did not find a proper translation for
“legal code” as there is no proper terminology in Arabic, that is why we
decided to join the words to make things clear. I agree with your comment that
we should stick to the translation of “creative commons license”, and find
words that give the linguistic and legal meaning to “legal code” if that is
possible.

Great.
Doesn't "صيغة قانونية" denote "legal code"?
I'm not asserting, but rather hinting.
What's the term used in legislative environments to refer to a مشروع
قانون and its drafted "code"?


> The translation to Arabic of “creative commons” is a more
controversial matter. One suggestion that we should follow the translation of
Arabic wikipedia that uses the terms “omameyat” rather than “mashaa”
that we used in the Jordanian CCPL Arabic license. I think that we are not
obliged to follow what has been used earlier for "creative commons" in
the Arabic wikipedia since it is just a suggestion, and there is no official
translation of the word, furthermore our job is mainly to find proper wording
that give the needed legal meaning in Arabic.  

Controversial indeed. It's been the main point of discussion for long.
I find the translation of Wikipedia holding no authority. We'll update
Wikipedia once an Arabic license is formally published.


> I suggest to stick with “mashaa” since legally speaking the law does
not recognize the concept of “omameyat” and it sound weird, but the word
“mashaa” is known and found in legal writings especially property law.
Jordanian and Arab legal scholars use the term “mashaa” for air and water
and the idea of creative commons “tragedy of the commons” in western legal
writings was taken from that as well, but of course its application in the
context of information commons and creative commons is not found still in any
Arabic legal writings.  

I agree with you that مشاع as used in the contexts of natural resources
and property could be the most suitable. I personally prefer it to
عموميات but I leave the legal debate to those who are more
knowledgeable.


> One thing that I have to emphasis is that we have tried to follow the
original language of the Jordanian Copyright Law as much as possible as the main
aim of the localizing process is to make the American CCPL license enforceable
when brought before a Jordanian Court and a judge who is familiar primarily with
Jordanian Laws.

Agreed. This is the purpose of "porting".
One comment though: I'm assuming that you started from the
"unported"
version of the license, right? The one worded in accordance wit IP
treaties, not the "US" version which is localised to USA
jurisdiction.


> For that reason, the terminology and definitions used resemble entirely
the Jordanian Copyright Law; that is applicable on the legal word
“collection” and many other words that their exact translation from English
to Arabic may lead otherwise, but our guide is the Jordanian law itself and
nothing else.

Naturally. No one is proposing literal translations. Yet some
translations may be more suitable than others, depending on many factors
as you mentioned above.


> As for your other linguistic comments, I think they should be studied
carefully. Ziad will provide in due course a detailed response to each one of
them. Please feel free to comments on any of the above and provide us with your
further comments if that is possible. We look forward to hearing from you or any
other interested reviewer. Thanks everybody for your support.

Law is a language-construct. Its all about words, no?

Regards,
Ahmad Gharbeia

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