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  • From: Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg <waldeinburg AT yahoo.com>
  • To: "John C.P. Smith" <jcpsmith AT talk21.com>, "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Tevel
  • Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 13:26:02 -0700 (PDT)

Hi John,

As for software (@2), Ari Kinsberg from the list used "bar ilan's mikra'ot
gedolot ha-keter" for answering a question on accents last year:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah_database#Mikra.27ot_Gedolot_Haketer
http://www.biupress.co.il/website_en/index.asp?id=447
http://jtslibrarytakeaway.blogspot.com/2010/06/new-resource-mikraot-gedolot-haketer-on.html
I don't know much about it, but it seems to have an innovative and user
friendly search function for morphological details.


If you are a tech guy without money you may use Regular Expressions
(http://www.regular-expressions.info) to search for patterns in Westminster
Leningrad Codex (http://www.tanach.us) or BDB
(https://github.com/openscriptures/HebrewLexicon).


Regards,
Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg



----- Original Message -----
> From: John C.P. Smith <jcpsmith AT talk21.com>
> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 10:14 PM
> Subject: [b-hebrew] Tevel
>
> Shalom!
>
>
>
> I am a new member of the B-Hebrew list. I hold a BA Hons degree in Hebrew
> and Jewish History from University College London (1989-1993). I have taught
> introductory–intermediate Biblical and Modern Hebrew. I write and teach
> Hebrew word-studies, using BibleWorks 7 for my research.
>
>
>
> Currently, in preparing an article on erets and tevel, with reference to
> tevel I searched the internet for “tsere tsere vowel patterns” and came
> across some correspondence on B-Hebrew last year (see below).
>
>
>
> I have a few questions:
>
> 1)    Apart from tevel (36 occurrences in the Hebrew Bible), cheresh (9
> occurrences), and Tevet (Esther 2:16), do you know of any other Biblical
> Hebrew words (or even Modern Hebrew words) with the tsere-tsere vowel
> pattern?
>
>
>
> 2)    As a matter of interest, do you know of a program for searching on
> vowel patterns (without consonants)? Or do I need to just manually read
> through word lists?
>
>
>
> 3)    Tevel only ever occurs without the definite article. Is this unique?
> Do you know of any other common nouns like this?
>
>
>
> 4)    What would you expect the construct state pattern to be for a
> tsere-tsere noun? It’s not possible to compare with the other above Biblical
> examples, since cheresh is an adjective and Tevet is a proper noun.
> Personally, I would expect the first tsere to reduce to a voiced sheva,
> hence, t'vel. Would you agree?
>
>
>
> 5)    Out of the 36 occurrences of tevel in the Bible, BibleWorks
> identifies 3 as being in the construct state, Psalm 98:7 and 9 (both of
> which appear to be erroneously labelled), and Proverbs 8:31 (literally,
> "Rejoicing in tevel His erets. . .") which seems to me more likely to
> be in
> the absolute state. In addition to Proverbs 8:31, F. Brown (The New
> Brown–Driver–Briggs–Gesenius Hebrew and English Lexicon, Peabody,
> Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 1979) cites just one further
> example of tevel in the construct state (p. 385): Job 37:12 (literally, ".
> .
> . upon [the] face of tevel towards erets") which again seems to me more
> likely to be in the absolute state. In other words, as far as I can tell
> tevel doesn’t actually occur in the construct state. Would you agree?
>
>
>
> 6)    Nir Cohen says that tevel has “an astronomical connotation”. What do
> you mean by this?
>
>
>
> 7)    Putting all of this evidence together, if confirmed by your answers
> it seems to me that tevel is actually a proper noun (and not a common noun,
> as it is usually listed in lexicons)—a poetic name for earth, in much the
> same way in which we name the planets in the solar system, e.g. Jupiter and
> Venus. Do you think that this is a possibility? Is so, do you know of any
> other supporting evidence?
>
>
>
> I would be extremely grateful for any response you are able to give, even a
> brief one if you are busy.
>
>
>
> Yours most sincerely,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> John C.P. Smith
>
> BA Hons, Hebrew and Jewish History (University College London, 1993)
>
> United Kingdom
>
>
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>
> Nir,
>
> I'm focusing my attention onto this word kind and not onto words with
> segol-segol.
>
> Concerning nouns with tsere-tsere --------> there are more than those you
> say. And so, XR$, deaf (Ex 4:11) and other that are not found in the Bible.
>
> Now, nouns with tsere-segol I found recently the complete list of this noun
> type -no matter they appear in the bible or not-. This list consists of
> around 60 nouns and these are the ONLY to fit this vowel pattern within the
> whole of the Hebrew language.
>
> But I intended to find an answer to this question: is there a common
> denominator to these 60 nouns?
>
> As I wrote in a preceding post, I am ready to send that list to those who
> are interested in the issue (preferably by private mail, unless moderators
> of this forum think that it can be of a general interest for the list
> members)
>
> Regards
>
> Pere Porta
> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
>
> 2011/5/3 Nir cohen - Prof. Mat. <nir at ccet.ufrn.br
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
>
>> dear pere,
>>
>> the type of questions you have been asking relate to post-masoretic
> hebrew,
>> i.e. involves shoresh AND niqud. there is nothing wrong with this, except
>> (as is becoming clear (for me) from recent correspondence) you are
>> considering
>> a dialect consolidated over a very long time. so, i dont know
>> if you can expect very clear-cut answers or a single logic behind the
>> words.
>>
>> my best shot is this: words with cere-segol are true nouns derived from
>> verbs, and allow the plural. they contain all 3 letters of a recognized
>> hebrew root. and stress on the 1st syllable
>>
>> the small set of words with cere-cere may have originated from other word
>> constructions which do not allow the plural: teveth (the name of a month),
>> and
>> tevel (there is only one...). they do not coincide with the three
>> letters of a recognized hebrew root (unless the late TBL=spice is included
>> as a root; even there, hebrew makes an exception and calls it TAVLIYN).
>> and stress on the second syllable.
>>
>> what these alleged "other constructions" were, i cannot imagine.
> as i
>> fail to see agriculture in the semitic (lunar!) months, i can only
>> imagine TEVETH to have an astronomical connotation - by the way,
>> so does TEVEL...
>>
>> i also wonder why you consider those and not, for example, segol-segol.
>>
>> best
>> nir cohen
>>
>>
>>
>> >>>> De: Pere Porta <pporta7 at gmail.com
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
>> Cópia: Hebrew <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
>> Para: Randall Buth <randallbuth at gmail.com
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
>> Data: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:05:21 +0200
>> Assunto: Re: [b-hebrew] Tevel vs Evel
>> Dear b-hebrew listees,
>> I'm doing a comparison between several noun types in order to make some
>> systematization of their patterns.
>> I find nouns consisting of three root letters with tsere in the first and
>> tsere in the second.
>> And so, TBL, world (Ps 19:5) or TB+, Tebeth (a month of the year) (Est
>> 2:16)
>> And I find nouns consisting of three root letters with tsere in the first
>> but with segol in the second:
>> )BL, mourning (2Sa 14:2)
>> SFR, book (2Sa 1:18)
>> $B+, tribe (Gn 49:10)
>> Can anyone provide a good reason of this different pattern?
>> I mean: not *"the Hebrew language is like this*", but, so to say,
> an
>> "internal" reason.
>> --Have nouns tsere-tsere a feature common to all them?
>> --Have nouns tsere-segol a feature common to all them, a common
>> denominator?
>> --Could we, given this and this and this root consonants, know in advance
>> which pattern (tsere-tsere or tsere-segol) the resulting noun would fit if
>> both vowel sounds are to be 'e'?
>> Friendly,
>> Pere Porta
>> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Pere Porta
>
>            
>
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