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  • From: James Read <J.Read-2 AT sms.ed.ac.uk>
  • To: Gary Hedrick <GaryH AT cjfm.org>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Phonetics of Ayin: Geography of Genesis
  • Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 17:17:30 +0100


Hi,

Quoting Gary Hedrick <GaryH AT cjfm.org>:

Karl, when are you guys going to see the light? The Hebrew text really needs a lot of reinterpreting. It actually says that Abraham lived in Van Nuys, in a family compound just off the 101.


Just off the what?

James Christian


Gary Hedrick
San Antonio, TX

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of K Randolph
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 11:56 AM
To: B-Hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Phonetics of Ayin: Geography of Genesis

Jim:

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:24 AM, <JimStinehart AT aol.com> wrote:
Karl wrote: “Genesis 20 referred to a completely different city, in the
south, not Tyre in the north of Canaan. Further, Abimelekh was the king of
GRR, not CR….”

For 2,500 years now, all scholars have agreed with Karl’s view that Genesis
20: 1-2 refers to a locale south of Gaza. But many people may be surprised
to find out that there is nothing in the secular history of the ancient
world to support that traditional, non-historical view, even though no
scholar has ever challenged it.

You repeatedly ramble on about secular history here, secular history
there, all the while ignoring that your view of “secular history” is
based on the religious works of an Egyptian priest Manetho
supplemented by a few other materials. And in ancient Egypt the
purpose of “history” was to make Egypt and its pharaohs look good. In
Manetho’s time, his purpose was to make Egyptian history look more
ancient, hence of greater value, than Greek history, so he padded
centuries into Egyptian history, when compared to archaeology, Greek
history, Biblical history, etc.

Your “secular history” isn’t really secular.

In contrast, Biblical history, while it concentrated on the spiritual
life of the people and kings, had as its main purpose an accurate
recording of the events, including the bad. Just like modern, secular
historians.



3. As previously discussed (being a modified version of an idea I picked up
from Karl), the seafaring people of Tyre may have compared the “rolling”/GRR
hills in Upper Galilee to their east to the “rolling” waves of the
Mediterranean Sea to their west.

This is an example of selective reporting on what others say.

There is no evidence from the patriarchal accounts that Tyre even
existed yet in the Early Bronze Age, or if it did, there is no record
of any contact between the Patriarchs and Tyre.

Secondly, and more importantly, the patriarchal accounts were written
from a landlubber’s POV (point of view), hence would not use a
nautical term.

Thirdly, you continue to treat Semitic languages as if they were the
same as ancient Egyptian, which they weren’t.


4. As we have been discussing on this thread, %WR in the unpointed text of
Genesis 20: 1 is one possible, albeit non-standard, spelling of Tyre/Ssur.

Only in your mind. Every Hebrew scholar on this list and elsewhere
disagree with you here.


5. The name Abi-MLK at Genesis 20: 2 is the same as the name of the
historical ruler of Tyre in the Amarna Letters. The people of Tyre, unlike
most other people, honored the famous pagan god Baal under the name
MLK/“King”. Virtually the only place in secular history where one would
expect to see the name Abi-MLK is Tyre. Surely the author of the
Patriarchal narratives knew that!

Where is your Early Bronze Age “secular” historical source to back that one up?


6. Although NGB at Genesis 20: 1 has traditionally been thought to refer to
the Negev Desert, there in fact is no secular historical inscription
pre-dating the common era to support that traditional view. The only NGB we
have in ancient secular history is item #57 on the T III list, which
probably is referencing a place in northern Canaan, likely located on the
west coast of the Sea of Galilee.

This is so off the wall it’s not even worth discussing.


7. We see that there is not a single secular historical inscription
pre-dating the common era to support the traditional, non-historical
southern view of the locale of Genesis 20: 1-2. By stark contrast, all 5
proper names in those two Bible verses have close matches to secular
historical inscriptions from Bronze Age northern Canaan. QD$, NGB and
Abi-MLK are exact, letter-for-letter matches. GRR is probably (though not
certainly) a letter-for-letter match to the KRR on the T III list. The only
non-ideal linguistic match here is %WR as possibly referencing Tyre, which
is what we have been discussing on this thread. Though %WR is not the ideal
rendering of Tyre, neither is the CR (which as a common word means “enemy”)
that is used in most of the Bible to reference Tyre. The sound of %WR is
quite similar to CWR in a Bronze Age context, differing only in that the
initial S-sound is not emphatic in %WR. If one is willing to admit that all
spellings in the ancient world were not absolutely uniform and rigidly
standardized throughout the millennia (especially before written Hebrew is
even attested), then perhaps one may be willing to consider %WR as possibly
being an early, archaic, non-standard spelling of similar-sounding
Tyre/CWR/Ssur.

Here are your nested “if”s that put your whole conclusion between
tendentious to science fiction. Seeing as some of them are n-o-t
accepted by a majority to totality of Hebrew scholars, that makes your
conclusion unbelievable.



Jim Stinehart

Evanston, Illinois

Karl W. Randolph.
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