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  • From: Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [b-hebrew] English to Hebrew?
  • Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 15:35:26 -0800 (PST)

Dear Rhienhard,

While it is of course true that the MT as we have it consists of various
linguistic layers, one can still be a bit more optimistic about the actual
spoken language which provided the basis for the written texts:

The existence of texts from pre-exilic period which, -- more than
monumental inscriptions, -- reflect the daily speoken language at the time.
The corpus may be modest, but we have no such examples from
neighboring speakers of NW dialects, Moabites, Ammonites or Edomites,
or even Phoenicians.

Secondly, the is a large number of examples of direct speech in the HB,
a complicated subject, but one which has direct bearing on this discussion.

Finally, there is the intrinsic evdience of diachronic development in the
BH itself. One would have difficulty explaining it, were there no
developments
in the spoken language.

And, let's not forget that before the MT we have the evidence of the DSS;
also that the Mishnah, completed by C. 200 CE, at least six centuries
befoe the MT, already uses exactly such text in all its biblical quotes.

All this has nothing to do do whether or not BH should be used as
pedagogical tool with students.

Regards,

Uri



Reinhard G. Lehmann wrote, inter alia:
"........And as far as BIBLICAL Hebrew is concerned it
is important to keep in mind that it is an artificial language,
mixing up several synchronic and diachronic different layers
(registers, dialects and so on). ..... Because there is no one to speak to
who has a native speaker's competence in Biblical Hebrew, there is neither a
sound reason to
translate a paragraph of any language into Biblical Hebrew nor a
chance to learn anything from that lest that we are ignorant.

Reinhard G. Lehmann
Academical Director
Forschungsstelle für althebräische Sprache
Johannes Gutenberg-University of Mainz



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>From leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il Sat Dec 2 19:29:22 2006
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Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 02:28:27 +0200
From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Gen 4:8
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What Bruce should have written was "some translations". The Hebrew is indeed
laconic, and both the Septuagint and the various classical commentators, as
well as modern translations, have felt a need to fill in the gap: what did
Cain say? Rashi, for instance, writes that he got into an argument, with the
purpose of provoking a fight. Radak (David Qimhi) says that he repeated all
of the things that God had said to him. Some midrashim claim that they were
arguing over whose half of the world would the Temple be built on. Ramban
seems to think that the "and it was when they were in the field" DOES refer
to "And Cain said to Abel". Such a laconic verse can certainly make room for
different interpretations.

Yigal Levin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Shoshanna Walker" <rosewalk AT concentric.net>
To: "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Gen 4:8


> No, the English translations that say "Let's go out into the field"
> are not variant but WRONG - and show a LACK of understanding Hebrew.
>
> Shoshanna
>
>
>
>
> The Hebrew text reads as you say. The English translations that
> include "Let's go out into
> the field" get it from the Septuagint and the other versions. It's
> not an ad lib, just a variant
> reading.
>
> On 3 Dec 2006 at 7:31, Bruce Prince wrote:
>
>> Can someone help me with a literal translation of the first part of this
>> verse. Generally, it reads, "Cain told (said to) Abel his brother." and
>> that's it! On the surface, it doesn't appear to make sense, but some
>> versions ad lib to suggest that Cain was suggesting to Abel that they go
>> for
>> a walk in the fields.
>
>
> Dave Washburn
> "I will get the...Amish terrarium."
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