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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] b-hebrew Digest, Vol 40, Issue 20

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  • From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard AT ont.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] b-hebrew Digest, Vol 40, Issue 20
  • Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 17:50:44 -0500

Dear Bill,

HH: But this tree from the Methuselah Grove is apparently not that old.
The figure given is five thousand years in a PBS program. However, a
scientist has recently discovered one older, but I don't know how much:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2817methuselah.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/methuselah/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/methuselah/explore.html

HH: Actually the age seems to be 4,798 years for the well-known one:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/08/23/SC7
2173.DTL


We're talking about different trees. The code of the one discussed in the
URL immediately above is given in the article as WPN-114, which is a
Wheeler Peak number. I'm talking about CA-535 as published by Donald
Graybill in 1980. I downloaded a copy of the data less than three weeks
ago. It has 7,980 annual data points. Graybill doesn't get a mention in
the article in the URL.

The point still stands. Those who wish to understand the text to support a
view that the earth was created around 4,000 BC and underwent a literal
Noah's flood are stuck with the uncomfortable fact that some trees are
then older than the earth on which they grow and survived being under
water for perhaps half a year or so.


HH: The article in the last link above talks about two trees and so can be confusing. The WPN-114 was named Prometheus, which was the oldest tree before it was cut down. The oldest now is called Methuselah, and it is discussed at the start of the article. Donald Graybill is mentioned in connection with Prometheus, as this excerpt from Wikipedia shows:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr

Prometheus however, grew in an area reachable only by off-trail hiking. In either 1958 or 1961, a group of naturalists who admired the grove in which the tree grew gave names to a number of the largest or most distinctive trees, including Prometheus[1]. The designation of WPN-114 was given by the original researcher, Donald R. Currey, and refers to the 114th tree sampled by him for his research in Nevada's White Pine county.
The ring count of a section of the tree by Currey was 4844. A few years later, this was increased to 4862 by Donald Graybill of the University of Arizona's Laboratory of Tree-Ring Research. However, the ring counts were done on a trunk cross section taken about 2.5 m (8 feet) above the original germination point of the tree, because the innermost rings were missing below that point. Adding in the years required to reach this height, plus a correction for the estimated number of missing rings (which are not uncommon in trees growing at treeline), it is probable that the tree was at least 5000 years old when cut. This makes it the oldest unitary (i.e non-clonal) organism ever known, exceeding the Methuselah tree of the White Mountains' Schulman Grove, in California by about 200 years.

HH: Both the link above and the Wikipedia article indicate that Methusaleh is the oldest bristlecone pine now that Prometheus is dead and gone. So does the PBS material. I searched for such information as you suggest and did find this:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:7g03TY_jcx0J:www.ltrr.arizona.edu/~hal/tancient.pdf++%22Donald+Graybill+%22++oldest+bristlecone+pine&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

My friends, C. W. Ferguson, V. C. LaMarche, Jr., Donald Graybill and Gary Funkhouserwere the scientists that extended the records of past climate from both the high and low elevation bristlecone pine thousands of years back in time to 6700 BC.

HH: But the article did not go into more detail. Maybe Dr. Graybill had some theoretical conclusions. I heard about dates going way back that rely on dates supplied by two different trees, so maybe it was something like that.

HH: For a consolation prize, I found this extremely interesting article, though it is not related to our topic, or even Hebrew:

http://pop.org/main.cfm?id=159&r1=1.00&r2=3.00&r3=99.00&r4=.05&level=4&eid=213

Yours,
Harold Holmyard







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