[permaculture] Is this Acquaponics then ?
stevenlawrencehart at gmail.com
Thu May 14 14:17:36 EDT 2015
Ahhh caught a shark or two..thanks for the bite. I totally agree believe it
or not in the vast majority of what you both say. However I *have seen*
systems that do not recognise such virtues still labeling themselves as
aquaponic. Obviously our challenge is to develop these systems that do
mimic nature while learning from nature or be bitten by her.
Thanks for the abuse as well
*"Steve, this is more evidence that you don’t know what aquaponics is.*
So Toby lets have your definition or is there an even higher learning
better one out there. Obviously this one from Wiki does not fit either of
*To critique a subject, you need to make an honest effort to grasp what it
is, and not confuse it with something it’s not. Otherwise you’re just
setting up straw men, *
*and that wastes everyone’s time. Equating industrial aquaculture with
garden-scale aquaponics is like equating factory farms with permaculture.
Like saying CAFO beef is the same as pastured. It’s simply wrong."*
I'd love to see examples of "garden-scale aquaponics" that are not similar
to CAFO systems. And prove that the entire system is one that does
imitate/mimic nature by passing on all such virtues. My argument stands
that there are no such systems man made that can offer this
imitation/mimic. It is totally impossible even if your were a Steiner
Einstein. Don't forget our key word is "imitation".
Building such systems are a great challenge. We have seen them through SE
Asia and India but they still collapse and explode regularly due to
imitations not being able to mimic directly and be maintained appropriately.
If anyone feels its a waste of time they all have delete buttons.
The otherside of this form of argument is that, we need to maintain
vigilance on what is recognised as virtuous Permaculture examples and what
is not. Remember one cliche " Work with Nature not Against it".
I have been irritated for a number of years now of serious abuse of the
whole world of Permaculture seeing first hand many failures and abuse under
the guise of Permaculture. This applies at all levels. So I, for one, feel
it is worthwhile to bring such debate up time and time again to assist in
maintaining vigilance and reinforcement as you have both offered. To see
and stand by watching while *"*
*honest effort to grasp what it is, and not confuse it with something it’s
*"* continues rampantly through many regions of "Permaculture"
Thanks again for biting and offering your degrees of vigilance to build a
more robust Permaculture community
On 15 May 2015 at 04:05, Toby Hemenway <toby at patternliteracy.com> wrote:
> > On May 13, 2015, at 10:17 PM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart at gmail.com>
> Ah, Steve’s trolling again. Okay, I’ll bite: That link was about an
> aquaCULTURE system. That’s CAFO farming at sea: Large scale, factory feed
> inputs, no re-use of manure and other wastes, monoculture. Horrible stuff.
> And it’s a totally different system from aquaPONICS, which is small scale,
> multiple feed sources, all wastes and manures re-used and converted into
> fertility via the same processes as in soil, and it’s polyculture.
> Steve, this is more evidence that you don’t know what aquaponics is.
> To critique a subject, you need to make an honest effort to grasp what it
> is, and not confuse it with something it’s not. Otherwise you’re just
> setting up straw men, and that wastes everyone’s time. Equating industrial
> aquaculture with garden-scale aquaponics is like equating factory farms
> with permaculture. Like saying CAFO beef is the same as pastured. It’s
> simply wrong.
> Aquaponics is not a panacea; it’s a limited-case solution. I’m in
> agreement with Scott, that aquaponics is primarily for food deserts. And
> for places where land is too expensive or rare for soil-based growing (e.g.
> cities) or for experimenting with or demonstrating a method. Elsewhere,
> let’s use soil.
> The problem of inputs in aquaponics is easily solved. Just as in
> agriculture, we need to use better sources: organic versus chemical,
> essentially. But like every intensive system, it can’t produce its own
> inputs indefinitely.
> And that's the root of it: Aquaponics is an intensive, (nearly) closed
> loop system, not an open, extensive system. The former always require
> inputs. It’s just like an intensive raised bed veggie garden: you can’t
> grow all your fertility from only the crop wastes; you need an outside
> source, like manure, a long fallow season or rotation, or a compost crop
> area (which Jeavons says is 4x the food growing area). Replacing the losses
> and harvests from an intensive system always means inputs.
> Extensive systems, such as food forests or fish growing in a lake, can
> generate (nearly all of) their own nutrients through natural weathering of
> soil minerals and other ecosystem processes. That’s because, unlike a
> raised bed, most of the system is not being harvested for human use. It’s
> an open system that performs many ecosystem functions. Not like a raised
> bed, which grows human food, period.
> So either we grow most of a city’s food outside the city, or we use
> intensive systems in the city and import inputs. That’s basic
> Extensive systems require the luxury of land. Not everyone has land. The
> land-poor either buy food or use intensive systems. Hence the interest in
> Coming in July: my new book on urban permaculture, The Permaculture City.
> Pre-order it at on-line booksellers or at
> > On May 14, 2015, at 7:50 AM, Scott Pittman <scott at permaculture.org>
> > I, too have serious questions about aquaponics, Larry. I have yet to
> see a system that is regenerative and not dependent on imported inputs. I
> only see a value for aquaponics in "food desert" situations and in areas of
> extreme poverty; otherwise I feel it is whistling in the dark. Ocean
> farming is still factory farming just in seawater. I agree that any form
> of factory farming is odious.
> > Scott
> > "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
> obsolete" Buckminster Fuller
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