[permaculture] deterring Deer

Cory Brennan cory8570 at yahoo.com
Thu Nov 4 13:21:44 EDT 2010


I hear you!  The challenges of designing in a culture not created for natural balance or stewardship...
C

--- On Thu, 11/4/10, Steven & Margaret Eisenhauer <eisenhauerdesign at earthlink.net> wrote:

From: Steven & Margaret Eisenhauer <eisenhauerdesign at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] deterring Deer
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 10:00 AM

I am convinced that all our ancestors had to do for meat was plant a garden
and then get the young ones to learn how to hunt at the gardens edge.  Alas
we are heavily regulated now - only two weeks in fall to hunt with rifle.
We do have a large imbalance here that is encouraged, I think given the
management directives of selling more hunting licenses.  Interestingly our
10 acres is surrounded by native forest full of nuts and berries yet the
wild ones just love our little valley of food concentration.  The larger
conventional apple orchards around here use dog hair as a dear deterrent and
hang meat to bring in the coyotes and traditionally poached allot.

Thanks for your note
Steven Eisenhauer

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Cory Brennan
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 11:32 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] deterring Deer

Interesting imbalance problem when looked at from a broadacre or bioregional
look, which is the ultimate handling.  Top predators don't have wildlife
corridors in most places any longer and aren't welcome near populated areas.
 Forests and other wild areas are degraded, offering less nutrition and
diversity.
In LA, we lived right next to a many acre zone 5 wildlife area but had few
problems with animals because there were coyotes, we had hunting cats, and
there was enough food outside the garden. Lining the yard with native
edibles helped. Living fences are an option in some cases. The bunnies
didn't come in the garden because there was too much good food outside of
it. Are there intensive wild forage areas near you? Are there plants they
would like better than the ones you want for cash crops/food for yourselves?
 We handled raccoons by noting they liked the creatures and grubs at the
bottom of our potted plants (in the nursery) best, so we provided them with
pots full of soil and grubs, and nothing else. When placed by their
entryway, they preferred those rather than scouting around for our pots with
plants in them. Then they got bored and went elsewhere for food. Observing
the habits of animals can give clues on handling them. 
At Pine Ridge, if a deer or any other creature came anywhere near our
garden, it would be hunted and most parts of it used.
Cory 

--- On Thu, 11/4/10, Steven & Margaret Eisenhauer
<eisenhauerdesign at earthlink.net> wrote:

From: Steven & Margaret Eisenhauer <eisenhauerdesign at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] deterring Deer
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 8:11 AM

Great thread.

We here in the Adirondacks are struggling with deer, bear, turkey, coon, etc
- that strip our 10 acre breadbasket.  We have orchard, apiary, garden,
general cropping - small grains and pasture.  We are looking into a system
sold by the Gallagher Company that uses two electric fences three feet apart
with strands placed at nose height for each respective critter.  They use
these fences for food plot protection on hunting preserves where they raise
large trophy size deer.  They have to protect the food plot until it is
mature, at which point they remove the fence, allowing the deer to eat the
plot down.  We have contacted the DEC here in New York and they have stated
that the Gallagher Company advises them and assists with the installation of
guard fencing around sensitive areas they are responsible for such as
garbage collection areas and camp sites in heavy bear country (high peaks
region).  We have not committed to this system yet and are looking for
references from others whose experiences with this system could offer some
insight as to its effectiveness.  One thing is sure though, as we bring the
soil up by remineralizing and cover cropping our ground becomes more
attractive to the wild ones looking for the proverbial free ride which is
becoming prohibitively expensive for us to sustain.  Can anyone on this list
speak to this system?

Steven Eisenhauer

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Pamela Sherman
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 3:26 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] deterring Deer

The deer eat our Jerusalem artichokes. It doesn't deter them. A ten-foot
high, strong fence is recommended (we live in the Rockies). I have been told
that aluminum siding placed all around  the perimeter of the garden or
wherever they are getting in works, extending out a number of feet (you
determine that). The clatter of their hoofs on it scares the heck out of
them and they bolt.
We haven't tried that. We tried double fencing with precise spacing (know
how far your deer can leap--with us, much farther than conventional figures
state). That has worked. DOW has given us firecrackers and allowed us to use
slingshots with pebbles, but these things merely annoy the deer momentarily.
When our dog was young and vigorous, he worked.

 Good luck!

Pam Sherman

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 3:11 AM, A Sampson-Kelly <
april at permaculturevisions.com> wrote:

> deterring deer.
> One of my students in Humansville MO wrote uses chokes (jerusalem
> artichokes) to deter the deer, he plants them in a boundary bed of 3m deep
> and says the deer hate moving through the chokes.
> In Sweden they use urine of wolf/dog/man along the roadside to deter them
> from venturing on the road.
> Here we use solar powered electric fencing in a maze set-up so they can't
> get through easily even if the break a section.
>
> April S-Kelly PermacultureVisions.com
>
>
>
> On 2/11/2010 11:37 PM, permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
>
>> Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
>>        permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>
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>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>>    2. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and Deer (Paul Cross)
>>    3. Re: hierarchy (Joan Stevens)
>>    4. Re: hierarchies and networks (Cory Brennan)
>>    5. Re: Permaculture in Guatemala (Hannah Roessler)
>>    6. moles, voles, gophers, and deer, oh my (Rain Tenaqiya)
>>    7. Re: hierarchies and networks (Cory Brennan)
>>    8. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers (Keith Johnson)
>>    9. Fwd: Permaculture in and around Washington, DC (L. Santoyo)
>>   10. Re: Fwd: Permaculture in and around Washington, DC
>>       (chauncey williams)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 14:19:58 -0400
>> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."<venaurafarm at bellsouth.net>
>> To: permaculture<permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers
>> Message-ID:<4CCF04CE.4040204 at bellsouth.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> On 10/31/2010 3:32 PM, Cuauhtemoc Landeros wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone know about how to get rid, remove or deter voles, moles,
>>> gophers
>>> or deers.
>>>
>> Deer:
>>
>> Build a deer fence, non-electrified.
>> Use 10' posts, cedar or locust or other slow rotting wood or buy
>> 8' (minimum) or 10' Steel T-Posts from farm supply outlets. Place the
>> posts about 15 feet apart and attach 6' or 7' foot dogwire (2X4 welded
>> wire fencing, the cheapest available) to it. For additional coverage
>> weave tree branches (cedar is great) within the fencing for additional
>> height .
>> Or just forget the metal fencing components and use wood posts and rails
>> and weave tree branches within the rails for coverage, replenished as
>> necessary.
>>
>> Gophers: trap them, relocate or feed to vultures or compost pile
>>
>> Voles, never seen one. Moles, lik fire ants are Natures little
rototillers
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:13:03 -0600
>> From: Paul Cross<charybda at newmex.com>
>> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and Deer
>> Message-ID:<4CCF032F.9040506 at newmex.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> I've concluded that deer are only fully deterred by physical barriers.
>> You can cage or wrap individual trees. Or you can fence an entire field,
>> but it has to be higher than they will jump, and they sure can jump
>> high! Here I make the fences 7.5'/2.3m tall. I have not had success with
>> shorter baited electric fences, allegedly deer resistant plantings, or
>> deterring scents. I'm not sure if keeping dogs is cheaper than fencing,
>> but a couple of dogs will keep deer away most of the time.
>>
>> For those subterranean critters, I am sorry to say that trapping and
>> poisoning are all that has worked here.
>>
>> In organic certified areas, we use "Black Hole" traps baited with peanut
>> butter. It is a lot of work finding the main tunnels, setting up traps,
>> checking the traps, etc. But it is effective. The black hole traps are
>> easily located by an internet search so you can see what they look like.
>> They last for years.
>>
>> You can trench and fence around an area to discourage burrowing animals
>> from crossing over the area. A trench 2'/60cm deep with wire mesh on one
>> side will give two means of protection. First, when the pest digs out to
>> find an open trench their instinct is to plug the hole and turn around.
>> Next they would not get through the wire mesh if they tried. I have not
>> tried this technique.
>>
>> In non-organic areas I got licensed to use aluminum phosphide (aka
>> Fumitoxin.) But I have yet to actually use it. It is a dangerous
>> substance (hence the need for training and licensing) but has the
>> advantage of having little to no danger of a secondary poisoning if
>> another animal were to find and eat the carcass of the dead rodent. You
>> have to be careful not to use it where there are burrowing owls using an
>> abandoned hole. That is easy to see because there will be owl scat
>> around the burrow. You should also be aware of ferrets it there are
>> ferrets in your area. You want to keep the ferrets and owls.
>>
>> Cats, owls, coyotes, and dogs are all a little bit helpful in reducing
>> voles and gophers. But I have zero tolerance for these pests in any
>> perennial area. I've lost thousands of dollars due to killed fruit trees
>> until I decided to trap. I make 100% of my living through growing and
>> cannot afford to have such losses that those pests can create. I do have
>> wild areas where those pests are allowed to exist, but they cannot be
>> tolerated in production areas.
>>
>> Paul Cross
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Joan Stevens<mamabotanica at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchy
>> Message-ID:<121264.26346.qm at web81201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> I am jumping in where I have little background on where the?conversation
>> has
>> gone - the hazards of those who only?pop into this listserve every once
in
>> a
>> while.
>>
>> There are some great?examples of hierarchy in the natural world.? How
>> about the
>> way your body works - an assemblage of organs and systems that are
>> controlled/prioritized by the brain (mostly)?? Or?a lovely example
>> from?Janine
>> Benyus (author of Biomimicry) of how muscle tissue is organized - smaller
>> bundles arranged into?larger groups that all?perform their specific
>> function in
>> service to the larger whole (also ultimately directed by the nervous
>> system/brain).
>>
>> Anyway, I'm a fan for not following any dogma about the "right way" to
>> organize.? Seems like as permaculturists we ought to be flexible enough
to
>> recognize that difference purposes also require different kinds of
>> structure. I
>> wouldn't want my body organized by consensus.? You think?your digits
would
>> willingly give themselves up to save?your core body temperature?? Doubt
>> it. and
>> sometimes that's what's required to save the organism.
>> My $.02
>> Joan
>>
>> ?"...the greatest change we need to make is from consumption to
>> production, even
>> if on a small scale, in our own gardens. If only 10% of us do this, there
>> is
>> enough for everyone.
>> Hence the futility of revolutionaries who have no gardens, who depend on
>> the
>> very system they attack, and who produce words and bullets, not food and
>> shelter."
>>
>>
>>
>> - Bill Mollison
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:08:53 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Cory Brennan<cory8570 at yahoo.com>
>> To: permaculture<permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
>> Message-ID:<840321.13634.qm at web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> Standards only become isms when they are ossified or become controlled by
>> entrenched, heirarchical vested interests and people forget where those
>> standards came from. How about as part of the standards, we create
>>
>> 1. a review and evolution process based on results and workability, so
>> that the subject can continue to evolve as appropriate
>>
>> 2. a curriculum that enables people to think with the subject rather than
>> rotely learn it
>>
>> #2 is one reason we focus on teaching principles of permaculture as the
>> core curriculum, focusing on showing how many ways and in how many
sectors
>> they can be applied. Once one understands the basic laws of natural
systems,
>> and how to observe those systems, one is not nearly as likely to fall for
>> "isms".
>>
>> If we focus on achieving multiple intelligence understanding of natural
>> systems, we create life long students of those systems, rather than
students
>> of "isms".  The only real way to apply permaculture is by observing the
>> system, there is no way around it. That is why I'm so thrilled with this
>> subject, because to the degree we do that, we cannot end up with an
"ism."
>>
>> Cory
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Mon, 11/1/10, jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle at hotmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>  From: jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle at hotmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
>>> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 11:03 AM
>>>
>>> Both your messages are important things to consider. I
>>> suspect that if a standard of organization is implemented
>>> for permaculture it will be a sign that it has become an
>>> "ism" instead of a way of living. The ism tends to become a
>>> creature unto itself, and the original goals can suffer as a
>>> result.
>>>
>>>  Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:25:26 -0400
>>>> From: lflj at bellsouth.net
>>>> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
>>>>
>>>> On 10/31/2010 5:54 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> One subject we touched on in the recent
>>>>>
>>>> certification thread was new and old tools for change, and
>>> the difference
>>>
>>>> between hierarchical and decentralized
>>>>>
>>>> organizations and tools. I'd said that I once had high hopes
>>> for decentralized
>>>
>>>> leadership tools, like consensus, but was
>>>>>
>>>> disappointed by how rarely they live up to their promise.
>>> I've been
>>>
>>>> skeptical of the value of these and similar
>>>>>
>>>> methods to actually produce change, and have found the
>>> older
>>>
>>>> tools--strong leadership, old-style voting--at
>>>>>
>>>> least as effective (though I still prefer inclusive versions
>>> of these
>>>
>>>> tools to exclusive).
>>>>>
>>>> They say that the world is run by those who show up.
>>>> And, freedom of the press belong to those who own
>>>>
>>> one.
>>>
>>>> However, these thoughts have been circulating lately:
>>>>
>>> a permaculture heirarchical oversight organization
>>>
>>>> that offers, like a governmental agencies that have no
>>>>
>>> teeth and only can offer recommendations at best to
>>>
>>>> those who do have the power to put laws, rule and
>>>>
>>> regulations in place.
>>>
>>>> You vote with your feet. Permaculture teachers,
>>>>
>>> organizations, consultants and designers and anyone who
>>> would hire a
>>>
>>>> permaculture professional simply could require that
>>>>
>>> they have proven expertise, knowledge and a certificate(s)
>>> of having
>>>
>>>> completed training and fieldwork before being hired.
>>>>
>>> This phoo could help those professionals in training by
>>> offering a
>>>
>>>> set of permaculture standards, similar to the Organic
>>>>
>>> Rule for USDA certified organic farms and an outline and
>>>
>>>> description of standard coursework that should be
>>>>
>>> required of anyone seeking status as a certified
>>> permaculture
>>>
>>>> professional. This process could be elevated to
>>>>
>>> community college and university level coursework.
>>>
>>>> Do read my suggestion about the need to recognize and
>>>>
>>> help those who cannot afford any training but want to play a
>>>
>>>  significant role in their communities as permaculture
>>>>
>>> mentors, teachers, activists (political too, if necessary),
>>>
>>>> consultants, designers and local practitioners within
>>>>
>>> a growing community of like-minded individuals (this would
>>> be so
>>>
>>>> important to so many, just think about that if you're
>>>>
>>> thinking about ways to make waves for forge the future).
>>>
>>>> I was catching up on a stack of New Yorker
>>>>>
>>>> magazines this morning, and in the Oct 4 issue there's an
>>> article that
>>>
>>>> fits right in to this conversation, "Small
>>>>>
>>>> Change" by Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell is known for his book
>>> "The Tipping
>>>
>>>> Point" and in general being a whole systems
>>>>>
>>>> thinker. He's made the points I would have liked to have
>>> made. I was
>>>
>>>> intrigued that he feels network tools aren't good
>>>>>
>>>> for doing design, and that they are better at preserving the
>>> status
>>>
>>>> quo than changing it. So here's a quote from the
>>>>>
>>>> article.
>>>
>>>> "Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and
>>>>>
>>>> procedures, networks aren?t controlled by a single central
>>> authority.
>>>
>>>> Decisions are made through consensus, and the
>>>>>
>>>> ties that bind people to the group are loose. This structure
>>> makes
>>>
>>>> networks enormously resilient and adaptable in
>>>>>
>>>> low-risk situations. Wikipedia is a perfect example. . . .
>>>
>>>> "The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter if the
>>>>>
>>>> network isn?t interested in systemic change?if it just
>>> wants to
>>>
>>>> frighten or humiliate or make a splash?or if it
>>>>>
>>>> doesn?t need to think strategically. But if you?re
>>> taking on a
>>>
>>>> powerful and organized establishment you have to
>>>>>
>>>> be a hierarchy . . . .
>>>
>>>> Wonderful thinking!
>>>>
>>>> LL
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> permaculture mailing list
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>>>>
>>> here:
>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>>
>>>  ???
>>> ????????
>>> ?????? ???
>>> ?
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:06:22 -0400
>> From: Hannah Roessler<hannahroessler at hotmail.com>
>> To:<permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture in Guatemala
>> Message-ID:<COL106-W529752614348E5502970C2CC480 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>> Hi there,
>> Try Roni Lec at IMAP, near San Lucas Toliman.
>>
>>  Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 08:30:21 -0700
>>> From: daveyisdavey at yahoo.com
>>> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture in Guatemala
>>>
>>> please i am looking for some folks practicing in Guatemala.
>>>
>>> if you are there yourself or were there once before or know someone who
>>> is there
>>> or know someone who was there.... please contact me.
>>>
>>> thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> Read the public message archives here:
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>>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these
>>> archives:
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>>> brackets)]
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>>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Rain Tenaqiya<raincascadia at yahoo.com>
>> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: [permaculture] moles, voles, gophers, and deer, oh my
>> Message-ID:<477155.92191.qm at web65812.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The first permaculture principle that comes to mind here is to turn a
>> problem into a solution: eat them.? If you can't bring yourself to do
that
>> than my experience with each of these is the following:
>> ?
>> 1.? Moles- aren't much of a problem except where they mess up
foundations,
>> paths, or greywater pipes, etc.? They are carnivores and pretty much
leave
>> plants alone.? If necessary, underground mole traps or a cat work pretty
>> well.
>> ?
>> 2.? Voles- the bane of my existence, making it very difficult to
establish
>> trees and impossible to have an annual garden.? Trapping is the only
>> guaranteed solution for an annual garden, but a cat can be good enough
for
>> perennials.? Vole population and behavior vary widely by climate,
>> vegetation, population dynamics, etc.? I am in a Mediterranean climate
with
>> oak savannah.? Simply observe where voles are currently active and put
>> regular mouse traps in their tunnels and paths, covered with buckets or
pots
>> to keep out cats and to make a safer-feeling environment for the voles.?
The
>> traps with the wide plastic ramp-triggers work best.? Trees and other
>> perennials must be planted with aviary wire all the way around their
roots
>> and?the upper six inches of trunk?to be totally safe, though I often just
>> use plastic bottles with their bottoms cut out around small plants, with
>> three or more inches sticking above the ground for small or cheap plants
>> that
>>  voles seem less interested in.? During dips in the vole population, you
>> can sometimes get trees or shrubs established without much trouble, but
this
>> is very risky and voles have been known to topple mature trees like figs.
>> ?
>> 3.? Gophers- similar to voles, though fewer in number, thus making them
>> easier to trap.? Traps usually must be specifically made for voles and
all
>> tunnels are underground, making the setting of traps trickier and more
>> laborious.?
>> ?
>> 4.? Deer- fencing deer is the only long-term solution, other than killing
>> them.? Depending on the topography and population density, fencing must
be
>> more or less elaborate.? I've used two inch mesh chicken wire on posts
set
>> 15 ft apart with the fencing only six feet high with few problems.? The
>> plastic fencing also works great, though degrades faster if in the sun.?
>> Eight ft is recommended in more densely populated areas, though you can
get
>> away with shorter fencing by putting lines of twine above the fencing,
>> spaced every ft or so.? White flagging helps the deer see the twine.? Two
>> four foot high barriers spaced four feet apart also works, and one or
both
>> of these can be hedges, so fencing can be reduced by live barriers over
>> time.? Dense bamboo can work, for example.? Fencing with ground receding
on
>> the outside works better than the opposite.? Less sturdy fencing requires
>> more observation and maintenance.? Trained dogs can also keep deer
>>  away.
>> ?
>> For trees out in the open, I've used five ft high fencing cut in seven ft
>> pieces to make rounds that are secured on one or more stakes.? This is
the
>> minimum protection trees need to grow above the browse level, and most
>> branches within the fence will eventually get chewed off by the deer.? I
>> often have to use sticks to direct the branches up and away from the
>> fencing.? Wider fencing would be better, but would require more stakes.?
>> Eventually, the fencing can be removed, but you need to watch for deer
>> destroying the trunks by rubbing their antlers on them during the rutting
>> season (Fall).? This is more common in open country, and may require
>> basically permanent wire mesh or other barriers on the trunks.
>> ?
>> Keep in mind that everything I've said is from my experience on the US
>> West Coast, and conditions may be different elsewhere.? Also beware of
>> gimmicky recommendations like putting scents out to deter beasts, or
those
>> silly solar vibrator things (which may work on a limited scale when move
>> around frequently).? For real subsistence food growing situations, "easy"
>> solutions will not work over time, in my experience.
>> ?
>> Good luck,
>> ?
>> Rain
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 14:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Cory Brennan<cory8570 at yahoo.com>
>> To: permaculture<permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
>> Message-ID:<4414.1313.qm at web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> In some of the projects I've been involved with, we haven't had time to
>> get consensus - there were too many life and death situations and
sometimes
>> we just acted without asking anybody, because we knew what to do to save
>> lives and even simply explaining to someone who didn't understand it or
>> agree with it would take too long.
>>
>> In less grim situations, I've seen consensus minus one, or 85% majority,
>> or other non-unanimous varieties work well and not be abused, personally.
>> Maybe it is the groups I've been in. We never used it to ignore the
concerns
>> of the holdout - part of the deal was to allow the dissenting parties to
>> state why they are dissenting. I found that people would communicate to
that
>> person after the meeting and continue to try to work with the person to
meet
>> their concerns. In one case, the person was clearly intent on disrupting
the
>> activities of the group to get what they wanted, and we asked the person
to
>> leave, but only after giving them several chances to work it out. The
>> project could have been seriously disrupted if we had continued to try to
>> accomodate this individual. I do not feel that one person should be able
to
>> hold up the forward progress of an entire group if the rest of them are
>> working smoothly together and making progress toward a mutual goal. That
>>  person should, instead, find a group he/she can agree with and work
with.
>> There are lots of tribes out there!
>>
>> I like that juries must reach consensus to convict. There are certain
>> decisions that I feel consensus should be used to make. Being able to
>> discuss a matter and reach consensus on it is a very useful skill set,
but
>> I've also found hierarchies quite useful.
>>
>> Cory
>>
>> --- On Mon, 11/1/10, jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle at hotmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>  From: jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle at hotmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
>>> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 11:00 AM
>>>
>>> I wonder if the division between heirarchy and
>>> decentralization is sometimes too "either-or", when small,
>>> decentralized heirarchies may be an avenue to use strong
>>> leadership. Consensus without strong individuals can
>>> SOMETIMES lead to weak groups, vulnerable to outside
>>> conditions that end up "steering the drifting boat".
>>> I do think that small heirarchies that are limited in their
>>> vertical intgration must have a common theme to be
>>> effective, be it philosophical, spiritual, familial, or
>>> other. But then, groups using consensus also need that
>>> cohesion. Also necessary for those limited heirarchies is
>>> the true willingness of the leadership to consult and listen
>>> to all members, with real inclusiveness. This is probably
>>> less possible if a group exceeds fifty or so members.
>>> One ptfall I found that ruined several groups run by
>>> consensus was the silly idea of "consensus minus one" which
>>> was promoted as a way to avoid being bogged down by a
>>> stick-in-the-mud individual but always became a way of
>>> ignoring the wisdom or concerns of the last holdout to
>>> consensus. Consensus minus one is nothing like consensus and
>>> denatures the whole purpose.
>>> How do other permaculture groups deal with this?
>>>
>>>  From: toby at patternliteracy.com
>>>> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:54:09 -0700
>>>> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Subject: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
>>>>
>>>> One subject we touched on in the recent certification
>>>>
>>> thread was new and old tools for change, and the difference
>>> between hierarchical and decentralized organizations and
>>> tools. I'd said that I once had high hopes for decentralized
>>> leadership tools, like consensus, but was disappointed by
>>> how rarely they live up to their promise. I've been
>>> skeptical of the value of these and similar methods to
>>> actually produce change, and have found the older
>>> tools--strong leadership, old-style voting--at least as
>>> effective (though I still prefer inclusive versions of these
>>> tools to exclusive).
>>>
>>>> I was catching up on a stack of New Yorker magazines
>>>>
>>> this morning, and in the Oct 4 issue there's an article that
>>> fits right in to this conversation, "Small Change" by
>>> Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell is known for his book "The
>>> Tipping Point" and in general being a whole systems thinker.
>>> He's made the points I would have liked to have made. I was
>>> intrigued that he feels network tools aren't good for doing
>>> design, and that they are better at preserving the status
>>> quo than changing it. So here's a quote from the article.
>>>
>>>> "Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and procedures,
>>>>
>>> networks aren?t controlled by a single central authority.
>>> Decisions are made through consensus, and the ties that bind
>>> people to the group are loose. This structure makes networks
>>> enormously resilient and adaptable in low-risk situations.
>>> Wikipedia is a perfect example. . . .
>>>
>>>> "There are many things, though, that networks don?t
>>>>
>>> do well. Car companies sensibly use a network to organize
>>> their hundreds of suppliers, but not to design their cars.
>>> No one believes that the articulation of a coherent design
>>> philosophy is best handled by a sprawling, leaderless
>>> organizational system. Because networks don?t have a
>>> centralized leadership structure and clear lines of
>>> authority, they have real difficulty reaching consensus and
>>> setting goals. They can?t think strategically; they are
>>> chronically prone to conflict and error. How do you make
>>> difficult choices about tactics or strategy or philosophical
>>> direction when everyone has an equal say?
>>>
>>>> "The Palestine Liberation Organization originated as a
>>>>
>>> network, and the international-relations scholars Mette
>>> Eilstrup-Sangiovanni and Calvert Jones argue in a recent
>>> essay in International Security that this is why it ran into
>>> such trouble as it grew: ?Structural features typical of
>>> networks?the absence of central authority, the unchecked
>>> autonomy of rival groups, and the inability to arbitrate
>>> quarrels through formal mechanisms?made the P.L.O.
>>> excessively vulnerable to outside manipulation and internal
>>> strife.?
>>>
>>>> "In Germany in the nineteen-seventies, they go on,
>>>>
>>> ?the far more unified and successful left-wing terrorists
>>> tended to organize hierarchically, with professional
>>> management and clear divisions of labor." . . . They seldom
>>> betrayed their comrades in arms during police
>>> interrogations. Their counterparts on the right were
>>> organized as decentralized networks, and had no such
>>> discipline. These groups were regularly infiltrated, and
>>> members, once arrested, easily gave up their comrades.
>>> Similarly, Al Qaeda was most dangerous when it was a unified
>>> hierarchy. Now that it has dissipated into a network, it has
>>> proved far less effective.
>>>
>>>> "The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter if the
>>>>
>>> network isn?t interested in systemic change?if it just
>>> wants to frighten or humiliate or make a splash?or if it
>>> doesn?t need to think strategically. But if you?re
>>> taking on a powerful and organized establishment you have to
>>> be a hierarchy . . . .
>>>
>>>> "But [network-based activism] is simply a form of
>>>>
>>> organizing which favors the weak-tie connections that give
>>> us access to information over the strong-tie connections
>>> that help us persevere in the face of danger. It shifts our
>>> energies from organizations that promote strategic and
>>> disciplined activity and toward those which promote
>>> resilience and adaptability. It makes it easier for
>>> activists to express themselves, and harder for that
>>> expression to have any impact. The instruments of social
>>> media are well suited to making the existing social order
>>> more efficient. They are not a natural enemy of the status
>>> quo. If you are of the opinion that all the world needs is a
>>> little buffing around the edges, this should not trouble
>>> you. But if you think that there are still lunch counters
>>> out there that need integrating [Gladwell mentioned civil
>>> rights activists] it ought to give you pause."
>>>
>>>> The full article is at
>>>>
>>>>
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/04/101004fa_fact_gladwell?current
Page=all
>>>>
>>>> Toby
>>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>  ???
>>> ????????
>>> ?????? ???
>>> ?
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 20:29:42 -0400
>> From: Keith Johnson<keithdj at mindspring.com>
>> To: permaculture<permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers
>> Message-ID:<4CCF5B76.9050206 at mindspring.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> To repel voles, moles and gophers, plant lots of daffodils and
>> narcissus, especially as part of a fruit tree guild. This will not get
>> rid of them but will help prevent the voles in particular from
>> munching roots of favored trees / shrubs. If you are in Ca and dealing
>> with pocket gophers, the bulbs will help but planting in buried wire
>> "cages" was the standard way landscapers dealt with the problem.
>> Hardware stores out there carried them in a variety of sizes. Moles do
>> not generally eat roots but rather grubs and worms. They stir the soil
>> quite effectively. For example I just harvested about 6 buckets of
>> beautiful mole (or gopher) diggings from the edge of my compost heap.
>> A.P. Thompson, a Virginia orchardist, developed the practice of
>> back-filling fruit tree plantings with a gravel and soil mix as a way
>> to discourage rodents. I've tried it and it seems to work. You'll want
>> to use sharp gravel rather than a rounded pea gravel. You can also
>> trap them with various devices. I've heard of folks putting a hose on
>> their muffler and gassing them with CO (carbon monoxide). I
>> encountered folks in CA who were using a VERY high-powered vacuum
>> cleaner to suck them out of the ground. Some people swear that leaving
>> juicy fruit gum in their tunnels screws up their intestines but I have
>> not confirmed this.
>>
>> See this link for a trick I haven't tried using "castor bean oil
>> granules".
>> http://www.hgtv.com/landscaping/no-more-gophers-or-moles/index.html
>>
>> I also grow castor beans and a plant called gopher spurge
>> (Eurphobiaceae) which may or may not repel them, but are fun to grow
>> anyway. I've even had deer EAT castor bean plants (which are quite
>> toxic, especially the seed).
>>
>> Fencing for the deer is my best choice as I don't have a dog.
>>
>> On 10/31/2010 3:32 PM, Cuauhtemoc Landeros wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone know about how to get rid, remove or deter voles, moles,
>>> gophers
>>> or deers.
>>> Thanks for the help.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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