[permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
aeromax.way at gmail.com
Sun Aug 15 02:53:57 EDT 2010
to add one more thing,
an ecosystem, and therefore permaculture, -with it's complex web of
inter-relationships where every animal has it's role- is an empirical
confirmation of a system of philisophical values that naturally contradict
those held by the military-industrial complex, neo-nazis, and
If they adopt the system because it's the most sustainable, the most
productive, and the most energy-efficient-- their values will be naturally
On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Andrew McSwain <aeromax.way at gmail.com>wrote:
> Wow...well said Rafter. And I do appreciate Kevin and others for delving
> into this hard topic and sticking with it. We do benefit -as a movement if
> thats what this is-from the conversation.
> I agree, thanks Kevin! Just because we disagree with you doesn't mean that
> we dislike or disrespect you. On the contrary! :D Thanks again for inciting
> such an interesting and necessary discussion!
> "I do hear a need to clarify the ethics/values of this movement. I dont
> imagine a consensus arising so I dont know what this looks like. But there
> are communities that may be using permaculture strategies, using the name
> permaculture, and are definitely not within the ethics we hold to.
> get co-opted, watered down, and infiltrated. One defense (besides our own
> military) is to be in discussion, move towards consensus, and know when its
> not permaculture."
> I agree that you guys are definately onto something here with your
> viewpoint about the movement being watered down and whatnot. I can say with
> experience that Permaculture is being watered down, but I can also say with
> experience that it isn't only happening in the communities that have radical
> political views.
> I attended a permaculture design course at The Farm in Summersville Texas,
> and I gotta say that I was pretty displeased with the quality of the
> teaching and the depth of the work. There was no permaculture on the site
> at the time. We basically paid them to do their research for them. Which
> from a pedagogical stand-point I am all for. There is no better way than
> learning by doing. It's just that the quality and depth of the material was
> very questionable. Perhaps I was expecting too much from a 6 day course..
> Anywho, not to say that the Summersville guys aren't amazing (which they
> are), or that I am a reliable source for the course (I showed up late and
> left early.. lol). I am drawing from my own experience, as limited as it may
> be, to suggest the very real, and likely possibility, that many of our very
> own "liberals left wings" are watering down the lessons through lazy
> teaching, low expectations of student's capacities and previous experiences,
> and the likes.
> It's not just the right wing crazies that could screw things up for us. So
> while we are focusing on how political views might screw up how clearly and
> effectively permaculture is *taught*, *learned *and* subsequently applied.
> ..we should instead be thinking about how the *way we teach permaculture *will
> affect the way permaculture is *learned *and *subsequently applied*.
> That makes more sense, right?
> Then if as a consensus we come to the conclusion that our pedagogical
> methods are not sound, then the necessary additions and modifications should
> be included in the course for teaching permaculture. Are pedogical methods
> and theories, teaching techniques, included in the course to become a
> certified permaculture instructor?
> Andrew McSwain
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <
> venaurafarm at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> On 8/14/2010 11:42 PM, Jono Neiger wrote:
>>> Wow...well said Rafter. And I do appreciate Kevin and others for delving
>>> into this hard topic and sticking with it. We do benefit -as a movement
>>> thats what this is-from the conversation.
>>> I do hear a need to clarify the ethics/values of this movement. I dont
>>> imagine a consensus arising so I dont know what this looks like. But
>>> are communities that may be using permaculture strategies, using the name
>>> permaculture, and are definitely not within the ethics we hold to.
>>> get co-opted, watered down, and infiltrated. One defense (besides our own
>>> military) is to be in discussion, move towards consensus, and know when
>>> not permaculture.
>> Bringing the people/groups Kevin objects to "allowing in the permaculture
>> movement" into the fold may well neutralize their
>> unpleasantness as opposed to excluding them and causing alienation,
>> giving them a reason to feel persecuted or discriminated against and
>> making them worse and for a longer period of time.
>> I think a lot of the right wing fascists are more bark than bite as
>> basically they are like everybody else with the same basic needs, i.e. they
>> are more like sheep than wolves and there is no need to fear or resent them.
>> By creating a regulatory "platform" excluding them you would only be doing
>> exactly what you accuse them of, being discriminatory, narrow minded bigots.
>> White and blue collar workers who are the ones mostly associated with the
>> right wing extremist/radical splinter groups Kevin refers to are the people
>> who contributed the most to all the US war efforts and also started and kept
>> alive the Victory Garden movement, farmland conservation, wildlife
>> conservation, permaculture-like homesteading and so much more. Now is the
>> time to bring them to permaculture, not alienate them. I very much object to
>> Kevin's "proposal for new permaculture platform" to exclude them from the
>> movement. Sounds just like something Stalin would have done, or any other
>> totalitarian dictator. Such a proposal suggests some control freak on a
>> power trip wanting to cause a lot of trouble for others. Time to wake up; we
>> are seeing just this sort of behavior in US politics; witness SB 510, raids
>> on health food stores and farms and who knows what is yet to come. We need
>> to be inclusive as a permaculture community, not exclusive, seriously.
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> Andrew Edwin McSwain
> 055(11)6785-1176 (São Paulo)
> 01(501)681-0439 (United States)
Andrew Edwin McSwain
055(11)6785-1176 (São Paulo)
01(501)681-0439 (United States)
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