[cc-community] Copyright enforcement and CC BY-NC licenses

Kevin Phillips (home) tacet at qmpublishing.com
Tue Aug 5 19:48:09 EDT 2008


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drew Roberts" <zotz at 100jamz.com>
To: <cc-community at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [cc-community] Copyright enforcement and CC BY-NC licenses


> On Monday 04 August 2008 14:51:16 jonathon wrote:
>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 05:38, drew Roberts  wrote:
>> >> The club I used to hang out at had a US$10.00 cover charge.
>> >
>> > But they are unrelated, right? You did indicate that the venue pays.
>>
>> I was using the amount the band earned, as an indication of how much
>> the collecting socieites claim.
>
> Yup, I figured as much, just trying to confirm.

You guys might be interested in the official rate card :)

http://www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk/productionmusic/ratecard/Pages/default.aspx

PRS has been hounding people around and abouts where I work, local 
businesses.
They threaten these local businesses with big fines if they fail to pay PRS 
for playing
the radio to their workers.  Even when two people are sitting in a room, 
where they
are both partners in a business (no employees legally speaking) they still 
need a
license because the public or other businesses may be in ear-shot....no 
kidding.

Interestingly, I kept one of the letters they send out.  On the reverse of 
the letter it's
all about explaining how efficient they were/are at sharing out the money 
they
receive.  The biggest shock to me was that less than 6% of their membership
actually makes a reasonable living from their music ($40K per year).

If you're interested I can type up all the figures into a post.  I can't 
find the same
bunch of figures on their web site.

Kevin


>>
>> >> Here is the way one club owner explained the costs to me.
>> >> Have a "three drink minimum".
>> >> * The first drink goes to the collecting society;
>> >> * The second drink is split between the various licensing authorities,
>> >> and the band;
>> >
>> > So the band gets the door and a part of the second drink?
>>
>> Advertising that the band is playing at the venue.  All food and
>> beverages that the band consumes.
>> I've forgotten the other expenses that get chalked up as "the band".
>> These are deducted from beverage sales.  The band gets none of the
>> beverage revenue.  (There is one exception.  If there is no cover
>> charge, then the performance fee for the band is also charged here.)
>>
>> > Anyone know more about how these things work?
>> >
>> > What about on nights when no band plays?
>>
>> Assuming neither a DJ, nor a live band, then those nights have less
>> revenue. As a percentage of gross revenue, net profit is higher.
>>
>> >Are the fees different for live versus non-live music?
>>
>> Different collecting societies.
>
> Really? I think down here it is PRS no matter what type of music. What are 
> the
> different societies there by type of music?
>>
>> >How does that jukebox game I dimly remember work if it still does?
>>
>> It is much easier to "control" collection society payments with a
>> jukebox, than with either a DJ, or a live band.
>
> I thought at one time, in the US, jukebox music enjoyed some sort of 
> royalty
> exemption going way back to early days. That was the game I was referring 
> to.
>>
>> For starters, the play list won't be changed, unless you change it.
>> How frequently the songs are played is something you can't control.
>> (Most jukeboxes provide information on how frequently a specific
>> selection is played.)
>>
>> > Actually, if I understood this bit properly, the automatic parts only
>> > apply to non-dramatic music / audio? You can't take advantage of this 
>> > for
>> > dramatic musical works from what I understood.
>>
>> If you want to use the songs "Acid Queen", "Pinball Wizard", and
>> "Tommy can you hear me?", in your work, you pay royalties to one
>> collection society --- I've forgotten which one --- and go on your
>> way. They do not have the right to deny you permission.
>
> Is this only if the songs have already been released outside of the rock
> opera?
>>
>> If you want to perform "Tommy: The Rock Opera", you get to pay
>> royalties to a different collection society. This one has the right to
>> deny you permission.
>>
>> If you want to make a movie version of "Tommy: The Rock Opera", you
>> talk to a different collection society.  This one also has the right
>> to deny permission.
>>
>> If you want to release "Tommy: The Rock Opera" as an audio book, you
>> talk to yet another collection society.   This one also has the right
>> to deny permission.
>>
>> If you want to release "Tommy:The Rock Opera", as a talking book, you
>> can do so, without obtaining permission from anybody, or paying any
>> royalties, if the appropriate box on the copyright form is checked.
>> (There are some restrictions on how it can be distributed.)
>
> Amazing isn't it?
>>
>> >> For audio media, it is a predetermined amount.
>> >
>> > Actually, I think even here you can negotiate better terms than the law
>> > requires and I always understood that the big boys at least generally 
>> > do.
>>
>> You need a fairly large catalog, and good lawyers, for that
>> negotiation to be cost effective.
>
> Just a little benefit for the big boys I guess.
>
> We never did finish up with how a person can collect royalties on a work 
> that
> they use and build upon under someone else's NC license without running 
> afoul
> of the NC license.
>
> I think, if I understand you correctly, you are telling how they can do 
> this
> with a statutory license, effectively sidestepping the whole cc licensing
> scheme completely.
>
> For instance, say I write and perform and release a song and put it under 
> cc
> BY-sa or BY-NC-SA, can't someong coma long and record a cover and make use 
> of
> the statutory license and keep their cover recording ARR and not license 
> it
> under wither cc "SA" license at all?
>>
>> xan
>>
>> jonathon
>
> all the best,
>
> drew
>
>
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