[b-hebrew] repost of full question
hholmyard3 at earthlink.net
Fri Apr 18 15:06:43 EDT 2008
> Thanks for responding!
> The question regarding Daniel 9:2 is closely related to the questions I had from Jeremiah because Daniel makes SPECIFIC reference that he got his information from Jeremiah. To me, it seems very important to take that into consideration when trying to figure out what exactly Daniel meant when he wrote chapter 9, verse 2.
> Which is the main reason why I was also stated the two initial quesitions regarding the grammar of Jeremiah 25:11 and Jeremiah 29:10. I don't know Hebrew, which is why I am posting to this list.
> Here is what I mean in summary:
> ALL of the Bibles that I have ever seen - ALL of them render Jeremiah 25:11 (the very first reference to the 70 years prophecy in the Bible) as a two part thought. That is, some of them render it as a compound sentence joined with ", and"; however, most render it with a semicolon or a period. It doesn't matter how you do it, they all mean that there are two separate thoughts expressed. I've gotten ahold of one Hebraist, and he said that there are clearly two thoughts there even in Hebrew - which makes sense because every Bible renders it as two separate thoughts. This means grammatically the seventy years attaches to the "servitude" not the "desolations".
> Most Bibles render Jeremiah 29:10 (except maybe 2 or 3) as "for Babylon". Some of them even render it as possessive - "Babylon's seventy years"
> So when I read Jeremiah 25:11 and Jeremiah 29:10, grammatically speaking, Jeremiah NEVER equates the 70 years with Jerusalem's desolations.
HH: But he does equate the 70 years with Jerusalem's desolations because
Israel is one of these nations:
Jer. 25:17 So I took the cup from the LORD’S hand, and made all the
nations to whom the LORD sent me drink it:
Jer. 25:18 Jerusalem and the towns of Judah, its kings and officials, to
make them a desolation and a waste, an object of hissing and of cursing,
as they are today;
Jer. 25:19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his officials, and all
Jer. 25:20 all the mixed people; all the kings of the land of Uz; all
the kings of the land of the Philistines—Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the
remnant of Ashdod;
Jer. 25:21 Edom, Moab, and the Ammonites;
Jer. 25:22 all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings
of the coastland across the sea;
Jer. 25:23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who have shaven temples;
Jer. 25:24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed
peoples that live in the desert;
Jer. 25:25 all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the
kings of Media;
Jer. 25:26 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another,
and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And
after them the king of Sheshach shall drink.
> The emphasis is always on Babylon. In Jeremiah 25 it is seventy years of "servitude" for "these nations" (plural).
HH: Yes, and Israel is the first nation mentioned in the list of the
> In Jeremiah 29:10 it is seventy years "for Babylon" - putting emphasis on Babylon's supremacy. Honestly, Daniel may not have even had Jeremiah 25. He was exiled as part of the first wave (Daniel 1:1), as you had noted. So he may have only had Jeremiah 29 - which was a letter to the exiles. But even if we assume he read what was later to became Jeremiah 25, then IT STILL points to servitude for "these nations" and seventy years "for Babylon". Nothing that I have read specifically attaches the desolations of Jerusalem with the 70 years, IN JEREMIAH.
HH: Israel was one of "these nations."
> Now when I read the NIV translating Daniel as saying the 70 years = desolations of Jerusalem, I am confused because he specifically references Jeremiah.
HH: But Jeremiah implies what he says.
> Let's come at it another way. This is another dimension to it that is confusing to me. When Daniel wrote chapter 9, the Jews were still in Jerusalem.
HH: You mean they were still in Babylon.
> They had not been released yet - that's the whole reason for his prayer in chapter 9. Daniel has just witnessed the end of the Babylonian empire in chapter 5. If you go back to Jeremiah chapter 25, read verse 12, and then go back to Jeremiah 29 and read the verses after verse 10, there was an order that was to be followed - a clear sequence of events.
> FIRST the 70 years would end
> THEN Babylon would be called to account
> THEN the Jews would return to God - with repentence, fasting, etc.
> THEN the Jews would return to their land
> At the time Daniel wrote the prayer recored in chapter 9, the Jews were on step #3 - remember Babylon was called to account in ch. 5.
HH: O.K., but prophecies are not necessarily limited to the period to
which they seem to address. Jeremiah 29:11-14 can refer to the return
from Babylon in the sixth century but can also apply to eschatology. The
basic promise is that God would bring them back.
> It is interesting that Daniel set out to do exactly what came next on the list of event - repent and pray to God. The Jews were on step #3, NOT step 4.
> That would come a few years later when they got back to their land. Until then, it would remain desolated. But look, step #1 was the 70 years ending. So the 70 years ended at least 2-3 years before the desolations did. How can they be the same period?
HH: This seems overly detailed. As I said in my last post, the 70 years
can be a round number.
> See what I mean?
HH: Yes, I see what you mean, but it doesn't seem a problem. God can
give a general figure.
> That is why I am having such a hard time with the NIV. Now if you look at an interlinear for Daniel 9:2, you'll notice the word rendered "fulfill", "complete", "accomplish" is strong number H4390. I've looked it up in a Hebrew dictionary and it definitely means "bring to and end" - "accomplish" - "fulfill". I may not know Hebrew, but words are words because they have meaning. And unless Jeremiah was using some sort of idiom, then the NIV left out any sense of the word rendered "fulfill".
HH: If the number of years to be fulfilled for the desolations of
Jerusalem were seventy years, then the desolations would last 70 years.
I don't see the problem.
> When the word is included, it brings the readers attention to the end of the desolations corresponding to the end of the 70 years. Now THAT matches the order set forth in Jeremiah.
HH: Isn't that what NIV is saying: the end of the desolations correspond
to the end of the 70 years?
> Just a side note. The seventy years could be a round. However, it is not necessary. If you take Jeremiah at face value - as 70 years of servitude for "these nations" to the "king of Babylon", then you can start with the full conquering of the Babylonian empire in 609 BC.... 609-539 = 70 years exactly.
More information about the b-hebrew