[b-hebrew] repost of full question
fiveacorns at yahoo.com
Fri Apr 18 11:10:09 EDT 2008
Sorry! Typo in my last email. The last email said this at the end:
Just a side note. The seventy years could be a round. However, it is not necessary. If you take Jeremiah at face value - as 70 years of servitude for "these nations" to the "king of Babylon", then you can start with the full conquering of the Babylonian empire in 609 BC.... 609-539 = 70 years exactly.
I meant it to read:
Just a side note. The seventy years could be a round. However, it is not necessary. If you take Jeremiah at face value - as 70 years of servitude for "these nations" to the "king of Babylon", then you can start with the full conquering of the ***ASSYRIAN*** empire in 609 BC.... 609-539 = 70 years exactly.
----- Original Message ----
From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 at earthlink.net>
To: "b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org >> "b-hebrew-lists.ibiblio.org"" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 5:15:27 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] repost of full question
The NIV of Daniel 9:2 seems fine. It justs states things in more normal
English than the KJV. The text is talking about the number of years that
Jerusalem's devastation would last. Yes, the city was attacked in 587.
But it was also attacked by Nebuchadnezzar in 605, when Daniel and
others went into exile. The dating is in a rounded number. How desolated
does it have to be to be desolated? Jehoiakim reigned from 609-598, and
Jehoiachin from 598-597:
2Kings 24:1 In his days King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon came up;
Jehoiakim became his servant for three years; then he turned and
rebelled against him.
2Kings 24:2 The LORD sent against him bands of the Chaldeans, bands of
the Arameans, bands of the Moabites, and bands of the Ammonites; he sent
them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the LORD that
he spoke by his servants the prophets.
2Kings 24:3 Surely this came upon Judah at the command of the LORD, to
remove them out of his sight, for the sins of Manasseh, for all that he
2Kings 24:4 and also for the innocent blood that he had shed; for he
filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to
2Kings 24:5 Now the rest of the deeds of Jehoiakim, and all that he did,
are they not written in the Book of the Annals of the Kings of Judah?
2Kings 24:6 So Jehoiakim slept with his ancestors; then his son
Jehoiachin succeeded him.
2Kings 24:7 The king of Egypt did not come again out of his land, for
the king of Babylon had taken over all that belonged to the king of
Egypt from the Wadi of Egypt to the River Euphrates.
2Kings 24:8 ¶ Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign;
he reigned three months in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Nehushta
daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
2Kings 24:9 He did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, just as his
father had done.
2Kings 24:10 ¶ At that time the servants of King Nebuchadnezzar of
Babylon came up to Jerusalem, and the city was besieged.
2Kings 24:11 King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon came to the city, while his
servants were besieging it;
2Kings 24:12 King Jehoiachin of Judah gave himself up to the king of
Babylon, himself, his mother, his servants, his officers, and his palace
officials. The king of Babylon took him prisoner in the eighth year of
2Kings 24:13 ¶ He carried off all the treasures of the house of the
LORD, and the treasures of the king’s house; he cut in pieces all the
vessels of gold in the temple of the LORD, which King Solomon of Israel
had made, all this as the LORD had foretold.
2Kings 24:14 He carried away all Jerusalem, all the officials, all the
warriors, ten thousand captives, all the artisans and the smiths; no one
remained, except the poorest people of the land.
2Kings 24:15 He carried away Jehoiachin to Babylon; the king’s mother,
the king’s wives, his officials, and the elite of the land, he took into
captivity from Jerusalem to Babylon.
2Kings 24:16 The king of Babylon brought captive to Babylon all the men
of valor, seven thousand, the artisans and the smiths, one thousand, all
of them strong and fit for war.
2Kings 24:17 The king of Babylon made Mattaniah, Jehoiachin’s uncle,
king in his place, and changed his name to Zedekiah.
Dan. 1:1 In the third year of the reign of King Jehoiakim of Judah, King
Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it.
Dan. 1:2 The Lord let King Jehoiakim of Judah fall into his power, as
well as some of the vessels of the house of God. These he brought to the
land of Shinar, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his gods.
Dan. 1:3 Then the king commanded his palace master Ashpenaz to bring
some of the Israelites of the royal family and of the nobility,
Dan. 1:4 young men without physical defect and handsome, versed in every
branch of wisdom, endowed with knowledge and insight, and competent to
serve in the king’s palace; they were to be taught the literature and
language of the Chaldeans.
So Nebuchadnezzar was ruling over and desolating Israel years before 587
> I am going to repost my question regarding Daniel 9:2. I did not have too much time previously to give you details. I appologize for this.
> My questions center around the NIV's translation of Daniel 9:2, how it relates to Jeremiah 25 & 29, and whether the NIV paraphrased the scripture - possibly leaving out some meaning. Let me cite some scriptures from Jeremiah first (since Daniel 9:2 references Jeremiah). To be clear, there are several questions in this post - all of which are grammatical Hebrew questions. Any help would be appreciated.
> To start, Jeremiah 25:11 reads:
> This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. (NIV)
> Most Bibles actually render this scripture with a semicolon or period dividing the two halves of this compound sentence. It seems that when you read this scripture, grammatically speaking, the "seventy years" modifier attaches itself to "serve". So it is NOT attaching the "desolation" with the seventy years, but rather the servitude of "these nations". It is stating
> 1) "This whole country" will be desolate
> 2) "These nations" will serve the king of Babylon 70 years ("these nations" is a reference back to verse 9)
> So my first question is this: Is this consistent with the grammar in Hebrew? There seems to be two subjects and two predicates here, and the 70 years is attached to the servitude. However, could it be read differently in Hebrew?
> Next, if we move into Jeremiah 29:10, it states:
> This is what the LORD says: "When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place. (NIV)
> Notice that is says "for Babylon". There are a few Bibles (including the KJV) that render it "at Babylon". There is a clear difference in meaning. If a translator were to render it "at Babylon", then it is clearly meaning the seventy years would transpire at the location of Babylon. If a tranlator were to render it "for Babylon", then it has a totally different meaning, one that is compatible to the "servitude" for "many nations" in Jeremiah 25:11.
> So my second question is this: What should it be? "for Babylon" or "at Babylon"?
> Now, we bring it into Daniel 9:2. Daniel references Jeremiah, and then states (as it is translated in the NIV):
> in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.
> Notice that the NIV literally equates the 70 years with the desolation. However, I found that the majority of Bibles out there render it slightly different - and the difference changes the meaning a bit. For example, here it is from NASB:
> in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. (NASB)
> Notice that in the scripture above, it says, "for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem". This statement focuses on the END of the desolation, not the desolation as a whole. This difference matters when we consider that Daniel also references Jeremiah - because Jeremiah seemed to indicate that it was "servitude" (not desolation) of "these nations" (plural). If you read it as focusing on the end of the desolations, it agrees with Jeremiah this way ... basically saying that the end of the 70 years would bring, as a consequence, the end of the desolation.
> So my third question is this: Is there something missing from the original Hebrew when the NIV translates Daniel 9:2 - and why do most others translate it as "fulfull", "accomplish", or "complete" - bringing focus to the end of the desolation and not the desolation as a whole?
> Here is the main reason for analyzing these scriptures this way: There is a massive amount of historical evidence pointing to 587 as the destruction of Jerusalem. Just about every history book ever written recognizes this. This evidence consists of agreement of several kings lists, business documents recovered from the Neo-Babylonian era (that establish the kings and lengths of reigns), astronomical diaries, and syncronization with other cultures (like Egypt). They all point to 587 as Jerusalem's fall.
> If we take the NIV as it stands, equating the desolation of Jerusalem with the 70 years, then the Jews got back around 538/537, after Cyrus released them. That would put the beginning of the desolation (or the destruction of Jerusalem) at 607/606. About 20 years off.
> However, if we take Jeremiah as saying the 70 years applies to servitude of "these nations", as the grammar seems to indicate, and if Jer. 29:10 says "for Babylon", then there is no issue - it agrees with history. But that means the NIV has either translated this incorrectly, or has simply paraphrased it without carrying over the entire meaning.
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