[b-hebrew] hell

Herman Meester crazymulgogi at gmail.com
Wed Mar 15 19:10:30 EST 2006


Indeed, there is a danger that this would be too broad a discussion,
for which I have neither time nor capacity. I have no intention to
argue what one should or should not believe, quite the contrary, I
think that the intention to make people believe things is one of the
primary causes of misery on this planet. In religion, belief (in the
sense 'creed') is irrelevant, unlike the love of God and love of one's
neighbour.

regards,
Herman

2006/3/16, Bryant J. Williams III <bjwvmw at com-pair.net>:
> Herman,
>
> I believe that we are getting beyond the purview of this list when stating as
> fact that Daniel, among others, are Hellenistic as to time of writing. There are
> many on this list that do believe that Daniel is who he claims to be and was
> written during the 6th Century B.C.E. We actually believe that there is
> predictive prophecy especially with regard to the Day of The LORD. This would
> also apply to Zechariah. Furthermore, when it comes to eschatology, it is
> primarily in the prophets, both former and latter, that the topic is brought up;
> although, other passages in the Torah and Khethubim refer to the "end times."
>
> It would probably be wise to just discuss the passage/topic without getting into
> OT Introduction issues.
>
> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Herman Meester" <crazymulgogi at gmail.com>
> To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] hell
>
>
> > 2006/3/15, Karl Randolph <kwrandolph at email.com>:
> >
> > > The New Testament carried on the tradition that the
> > > afterlife was seldom mentioned; not because it was
> > > irrelevant, but because it was unimportant. It was
> > > theologians who really play up the issue. Even the
> > > New Testament book of Revelation finds the afterlife
> > > so important that it is described in only two of its
> > > 22 chapters.
> >
> > I guess you're right, after all it is this life, first, that we are to
> > make the best of.
> >
> > > Job, whom from his style I take as a late, pre-Exile
> > > writer, mentions that after death yet he will see
> > > his redeemer in a way that implies resurrection.
> > > Because of its lack of importance, I struggle to
> > > remember other verses I recall reading. Most of
> > > Tanakh is narrative and instructions for daily life,
> > > where discussing the afterlife logically does not
> > > fit in.
> >
> > I'll take a good look at Job.
> >
> > > Sheol is the place of the dead, all the dead. It is
> > > also a synonym for being dead, in a poetic manner.
> > >
> > > By the way, where do you get the idea that the book
> > > of Daniel was Hellenistic? Daniel wrote well over a
> > > century before Alexander the Great was born. Or was
> > > Hellenism the idea already suffused throughout
> > > Babylon and Persia during the Exile?
> >
> > Needless to say Daniel is one of the controversial books of the
> > Hebrew/Aramaic Bible. First, it seems that Daniel belongs to the
> > pseudepigraphical tradition in which anonymous writers hide behind
> > legendary "types" (τυποι) such as Daniel, or Job. Daniel, as a
> > legendary sage, is already found in Ugaritic texts. Furthermore the
> > eschatological idea of times getting worse and worse and kingdoms
> > getting increasingly evil (cf. the "4 empires"), is a Greek (i.o.w.
> > Hellenistic) idea.
> >
> > This idea cannot be found in the major prophets and the
> > Dodekapropheton. In those, the idea of the Day of the Lord is there,
> > but this is not eschatological; it is a day of reckoning where the end
> > of times is never mentioned. These two separate ideas merged in
> > Hellenistic times, and the result was Jewish eschatology, where times
> > get worse and worse until the appointed time of judgment, decided by
> > God, and this is in many ways the end of this world, has been reached.
> > Daniel in this sense is a Hellenistic text.
> >
> > Another argument is that in the Jewish tradition the book Daniel does
> > not belong to the "Prophets", but to the "Writings". It seems people
> > realised the text is a pseudepigraph. All in all, scholarship (not
> > uncontested, of course) in majority concludes that the work originates
> > in the second century A.D.; cf. also the Maccabaean history,
> > Epiphanes, etc.
> >
> > I realise that you may not agree; however, we have to note that dozens
> > of anonymous writers in Antiquity hide behind famous names. After all,
> > it is the message, not the author, that counts. One of my favourite
> > books is Qohelet, and I don't really care who wrote the book, king
> > Solomon, which I doubt is the case, or an anonymous Hellenistic-time
> > writer.
> >
> > Another interesting text is 2Baruch (= Syriac Baruch, = Apocalypse of
> > Baruch), a text that talks, among other things, of the destruction of
> > the Temple in 70 A.D., but uses the setting of the destruction of the
> > Temple in 587/6 B.C. A reconstruction of the Second Temple is not
> > mentioned in the text to happen any time soon, so we can conclude that
> > to the writer, this was a hopeless expectation. Instead, the word
> > "Nomos" is used in an almost Pharisaic way, which places the writer in
> > the first or second century A.D. So the Baruch in this text is
> > unlikely to have been Jeremia's secretary.
> >
> > regards,
> > Herman
> >
> >
> > > Karl W. Randolph.
> > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Herman Meester" <crazymulgogi at gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > I agree, the various notions exist side by side without cancelling each
> other.
> > > > However, the idea of eternal life whether for good or for bad (heaven
> > > > or hell) seems to be a novelty of the Hellenistic time that is not
> > > > there in the oldest/ most classic parts of the Hebrew biblical corpus
> > > > (of which Daniel isn't a part: Daniel is a rather Hellenistic text).
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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