I AM THAT I AM and John 8:58 - Rolf, Ron
rrhoades at jps.net
Thu Dec 31 20:28:11 EST 1998
John Ronning wrote:
>Rolf, what is lacking from John 1:1-18 that you require? Perhaps it >easier for the "ordinary man" to see than it is for the highly educated.
John, I'm not highly educated and very ordinary, but it's not any easier
for me to see an identification of Jesus as Jehovah here. Quite the
opposite, it's very easy for me to see the difference between hO THEOS
and THEOS, that Jesus *cannot* be the same God that he is WITH, that
Jesus is the means or instrument used by God in creation, that Jesus was
an only-BEGOTTEN son *from* his father, that Jesus was a BEGOTTEN god vs
the unbegotten God, and that we've seen Jesus whereas no one has seen
Almighty God. I think it takes some real mental magic to see some
unusual meaning in these words that would allow Jesus to be equated with
>Ron wrote:we have prophecies that are >originally applied to Jesus in OT >but then reapplied to Christians in >the NT. This does not mean he is >Jehovah any more than Christians are >Christ: cf. Ac. 13:47 with >Isa.42:6; 49:6. >>John wrote: I don't see any logical connection between >these two sentences or any relavance to the present discussion.
Your logic is to take one title or word spoken by YHWH (out of context)
in the OT and when the same phrase is applied to Jesus in a totally
different context you say it means they are the same individual. The
point is that by the same logic I can prove that Christians are the same
person as Christ, *if* I also ignore the obvious. Or that Satan is YHWH
because both have the term THEOS applied to them when every one knows
that only YHWH can be "God" according to scripture.
>How does your reasoning lead to the conclusion that someone else besides >Yhwh could say "I am the first and the last" when the OT makes it clear >that Yhwh is the only one who can say that?
No, the OT does not make it clear that no one can use those words.
Similar with the term ELOHIM/THEOS, no one can use them in the *same
sense* and to the *same degree* as Almighty God. When the title is
applied to Christ it is always associated with Jesus' death and
resurrection. (Can God die? So they cannot be speaking of the same
individual.) For Christ it is used with definite limitations.
So "first and last" when applied to Jesus is limited in its meaning by
context, but when used of Jehovah the meaning is unlimited.
(I think we are too far away from the Hebrew, so I will not say more on
this line of reasoning.)
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