[B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Mar 27 19:24:18 EDT 2007


I'm not affirming anything regarding the condition (and therefore the conclusion) being fulfilled or not fulfilled.  It is a simple IF X THEN Y condition.  Perhaps X will occur and then so will Y.  On the other hand, perhaps neither will happen.
 
george
gfsomsel
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:21:32 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/

George, If so then, our English translations are misleading?  In English we would hear a real condition. But you are affirming that in Greek, because of the indicative after EI,  there is no possibility of the "condition" not being fulfilled? That it is inevitable that they will continue and that the possibility of them not continuing is our of the question.
Do others have views here?
Anthony Buzzard.

At 07:13 PM 3/27/2007, George F Somsel wrote:

No, it is not a real condition.  It is a condition whose truth is assumed for the purposes of argument WHETHER OR NOT it ever actually occurs.
 
george
gfsomsel
_________ 


----- Original Message ----
From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:02:09 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/

George, Thank you for finding this for me. Am I right to think that the condition expressed in the protasis is nevertheless a real condition, such that not remaining is an actual possibility, though not one expected by Paul?
Anthony Buzzard


At 06:52 PM 3/27/2007, George F Somsel wrote:

22 NUNI DE APOKATHLLACEN EN TWi SWMATI THS SARKOS AUTOU DIA TOU QANTOU PARASTHSAI hUMAS hAGIOUS KAI AMWMOUS KAI ANEGKLHTOUS KATENWPION AUTOU
 
23 EI GE EPIMENETE THi PISTEI 
 
Note that here the apodosis (APOKATHLLACEN) precedes the protasis (EI EPIMENETE).  This is what has been called a First Class Condition in which the condition is ASSUMED to be true for the arguement's sake.
 
  
1. First Class Condition (Assumed True for Argument’s Sake)
a. Definition
The first class condition indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The normal idea, then, is if—and let us assume tthat this is true for the sake of argument—then… . This class uses the particle εἰ with the indicative (in any tense) in the protasis. In the apodosis, any mood and any tense can occur. This is a frequent conditional clause, occurring about 300 times in the NT.
 
Daniel B. Wallace. (1999; 2002). Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics - Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (690). Zondervan Publishing House and Galaxie Software.

 
george
gfsomsel
_________ 


----- Original Message ----
From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:35:13 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/

Ladies and Gentlemen,
>May  I please ask for your expert opinion. In Col 1:23 we have an EI 
>(if) with an indicative.
Is it true that when IE is followed by an indicative the condition is 
not really a condition? In other words does the Greek mean "If, as is 
absolutely certain to be the case, you continue...."
Or is the sense truly conditional, ie "If and only if you 
continue.... otherwise...."
Can one say that the indicative after EI cancels the idea that 
anything but certainty is implied?.
Certainly in English one hears in Col 1:23 "On condition that you persist...."
And the further statement "not shifting...." seems strongly to imply 
that such a shifting is a real possibility.
Anthony Buzzard.


Anthony Buzzard
www.restorationfellowship.org 

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