From daveyisdavey@yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 14:11:22 2011Return-Path: <daveyisdavey@yahoo.com>
hello y'all,
please help us rack up the votes for a contest HM157 is in the run for. we
are trying to win a table that will be a huge help in prep for the awesome
weekly dinners. these dinners are a huge success with all kinds of great
folks coming out to enjoy the tasty food. these dinners are open to the
community and vegan, locally sourced, organic, and foraged when possible. we
ask for a $5 donation to cover materials but generous donations are always
much appreciated and put to work.
here is the link: http://swapmeet.bludot.com/index.php#viewbid1032
*to vote: just click on the thumbs-up *
Toby,
If you disagree fine, but there is no need to insult your fellow
listers with words like 'nonsense', 'loony-bird', 'idiocy' and
'numbskull.'
Using these creationist type tactics to force your opinions down
other peoples throats, is not the way to get you ideas across. I
hope that you do not try to spread your ideas about permaculture in
the same way or you will be doing us all a dis-service.
Chris
--- On Tue, 3/1/11, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ormus- ORMES
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 12:33 PM
On Feb 28, 2011, at 7:41 PM, wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk
wrote:
consider you to be one of the most valuable contributors to
Toby,
I do not mean to argue with you, especially when I
this list, but I must point out that plate tectonics, just
like Darwin's evolution, the Big Bang etc are all just
theories.
I used the phrase "plate tectonics" as shorthand for the
movement of continental plates and the consequent uplift,
which are observed facts, not a theory. The relevant
observed fact here is that large areas of the continents are
rising and have been for tens or hundreds of millions of
years, with no sign of slowing down. There is no evidence to
dispute it. None. There is not one shred of evidence to
suggest that the continents will disappear "in a few million
years." The people who wrote that remain inexcusable
ignoramuses who damage what might be useful work by
bolstering their words with nonsensical pseudoscience.
I don't think you understand what "theory" means to a
scientist or philosopher of science. You are using it in the
same way that the creationists do (I understand that you are
not a creationist), as in "evolution is just a theory," as
if there is some doubt about it. Theory does not mean in
doubt or tentative. To a scientist, a theory is a profoundly
powerful explanation that is consistent with, and accounts
for, observed facts. It it a very different use from the lay
person's, "well, here's my theory." Einstein's theory of
relativity, Newton's theory of gravity, Darwin's theory of
evolution by natural selection etc, are "just theories" but
they explain observed facts in such a coherent manner that
the likelihood of their being discarded is vanishingly
small. There is no more powerful word in science for an
explanation than "theory." We could call the above theories,
and plate tectonics, "facts," and I do hear scientists speak
of the fact of evolution because we have seen it
and measured it. But formally, they are explanations that
make facts coherent, and not facts themselves, so we don't
call them facts. Of course, some theories cover facts that
seem contradictory or don't explain every phenomenon, but
the overthrowing of a theory as established, and as
consistent with observation, as plate tectonics just isn't
going to happen. Geology makes no sense without it, just as
all of biology and medicine are made coherent only by
evolution. Those theories may get tweaked, but I am willing
to bet a large sum that they will never be discarded. (I am
a student of the philosophy of science, so I appreciate the
change to rant about this confusion a bit!. It is a
confusion used as a smokescreen by numbskulls to ignore
facts that conflict with their religion's stories.)
without questioning what might be wrong with the theory or
"Textbooks frequently extol plate tectonics theory
without discussing a competitive theory. How can students be
taught to challenge popular ideas when they are only
presented a one-sided view?"
Nonsense and untrue. We should teach that one plus one
might make three, just so we give other views? Gimme a
break. Science is not a democracy where every loony-bird
gets heard; "God did it" is not science. Besides, all
the textbooks I've seen describe the steps we went through
to arrive at plate tectonics, and the flaws, just as every
evolution explanation I've seen mentions what it fails to
account for. The author of that quote is simply lying. Most
textbooks have been forced to include creationism and other
idiocy because that particular lobby is so powerful. It is
the facts that are in danger, not the religious myths.
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
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From venaurafarm@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 8 16:15:18 2011Return-Path: <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
are only "open to interpretation" based on the observable facts and
data. Not our opinions of how things could be, or might be.
I have no problem with
anyone's beliefs about energy, plant devas, spirits and the like.
Science obviously does a poor job of understanding or dealing with these
topics except for perhaps quantum physics.
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