From permie@earthlink.net Wed Oct 27 09:41:02 2010Return-Path: <permie@earthlink.net>
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Permaculture Design Course in Darjeeling Nov 14-28th!
(Toby Hemenway)
2. Re: Permaculture Design Course in Darjeeling Nov 14-28th!
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
3. official certification (paul wheaton)
4. Re: official certification (Cory Brennan)
5. Re: official certification (Dick Pierce)
6. Re: official certification (Killian O'Brien)
7. Re: official certification (Cory)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:45:55 -0700
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture Design Course in Darjeeling
Nov 14-28th!
Message-ID: <B37BEF55-61DA-41DB-849C-3603AD88FC04@patternliteracy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Beeja and everyone,
A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make you a "certified permaculture
designer." It's an introductory course. I urge people not to say that, as it's a false
claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that I was now a "permaculture design
trainee," and that's what the certificate means. It is the first step toward becoming a
designer, which, in the system BIll set up, meant that after two years of additional, full-time
work or its equivalent in design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in permaculture
design, and then maybe call yourself a designer.
The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly the same amount of class
time as two college courses. If you took chemistry 101 and 102, you would
never call yourself a chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the PDC.
BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no attachment.
Good luck with the course, at any rate!
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer, we
are hosting another course this November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th. This
is the longest running PDC course happening in India for the last 7 years!
Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle
design!
Attached is the flyer and registration form.
Hope to see you there!
Warm Regards,
Ameli
...
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:48:36 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture Design Course in Darjeeling
Nov 14-28th!
Message-ID: <4CC206B4.1090007@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 10/22/2010 2:45 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
Beeja and everyone,
BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no attachment.
On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer, we
are hosting another course this
November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th. This is the longest running PDC course
happening in India for the last 7
years!
Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle
design!
Attached is the flyer and registration form.
Use the list's blog to post attachments. Register and log in then I will
upgrade the user's status so he can post to the blog. At present comments are
public.
For this reason I plan to set up an accompanying webforum also, wherein new
users can post
with attachments and upload documents and pictures.
So, all connected:
list, blog, webforum
Permaculture Mailing List Blog
Permaculture Mailing List Blog http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:47:07 -0600
From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [permaculture] official certification
Message-ID:
<AANLkTikXkukM_3JEJJ5LWFQOqz4wqYpfv3Mep7ThDuAN@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
The awkward part of all this is that there are PDCs that are billed as
becoming a certified permaculture designer. Like the one I took.
Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to become a
certified permaculture designer. And afterward I told people that I
was now a certified permaculture designer.
A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and heard this
same thing: "no - taking a PDC does not make you a certified
permaculture designer." So I double checked: the ad was still up
for the class I took and it still said I would be a certified
permaculture designer.
I can see the need for more levels of certification. I would really
like to support that. And I think that if you stick to saying that
completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will punish the
people that are in the know and reward the people that are not.
So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm going to
assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture designer"
I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and nothing formal
beyond that.
As for the bit about two college classes vs. a degree: Well, in the
java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer) and there
are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40 hours)
designed to get you to pass the exam. And this is considered one of
the toughest exams. And then they have other, more advanced, exams
for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the like.
To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of embracing the
flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that are a bit
more clear.
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
<toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:
Beeja and everyone,
A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make you a "certified permaculture
designer." It's an introductory course. I urge people not to say that, as it's a false
claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that I was now a "permaculture design
trainee," and that's what the certificate means. It is the first step toward becoming a
designer, which, in the system BIll set up, meant that after two years of additional, full-time
work or its equivalent in design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in permaculture
design, and then maybe call yourself a designer.
The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly the same amount of class
time as two college courses. If you took chemistry 101 and 102, you would
never call yourself a chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the PDC.
BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no attachment.
Good luck with the course, at any rate!
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer, we
are hosting another course this November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th. This
is the longest running PDC course happening in India for the last 7 years!
Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle
design!
Attached is the flyer and registration form.
Hope to see you there!
Warm Regards,
Ameli
...
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
Message-ID: <2040.52127.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Every PDC I know of gives a certificate at the end of the course saying "Permaculture Design Course" and none of them say "trainee."? I was told by my teacher that I should apprentice for minimum two years to become a teacher, but not a designer. I personally felt I needed to apprentice longer than that before I took on teaching a full design course. But I did some designs well before I finished the two year apprenticeship and did pretty good. I knew when to go to people more expert than me if I had a question about something. I also had a pretty good idea of what I didn't know, and boned up and reviewed it, etc. I feel that jumping out there and starting to design increased my learning rate tremendously because I had to deal with real world situations and see what failed and what worked.
I tell my students that they get the certificate when the course is done but that is only the beginning of their training.? I try to make clear what they still don't know at the end of the course and I try to make it real to them throughout the course that permaculture is a science that embraces many specialty sciences such as climatology, biology, etc, etc, etc. We offer apprenticeships and also encourage them to apprentice with others, to get multiple viewpoints and experiences.
From my viewpoint, I knew so much more about conscious, sustainable design at the end of the course than the people i was designing for that I could call myself certified, compared to them. I also did the course over six months and read some of the key references during that time - in a two week course it's harder to do that. I appreciate the depth of experience and skill that permaculturists with decades of experience have and am well aware and respectful of the difference between them and a new graduate.
While I understand how much a new graduate doesn't know, I also can appreciate how much they do know compared to the average person. My goal as an instructor is to make sure my students actually know what a permaculture design needs to incorporate and are willing to go to experts (native plant specialists, natural builders, more experienced permaculturists, etc) to get the info they need in order to properly do the design. In my experience, I've never seen a new graduate take on a major project on their own. They do seem to know their limitations for the most part and partner up. A lot of them don't do anything beyond their own gardens.
While I resonate with what you're saying, Toby, and I feel I understand why you would want to make the point, I just wanted to put in a plug for letting people have the certificate as I think overall it may do more good than harm. You may have had different experiences than me and if so, I'm listening.
Cory
--- On Fri, 10/22/10, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:
From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: [permaculture] official certification
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 3:47 PM
The awkward part of all this is that
there are PDCs that are billed as
becoming a certified permaculture designer.? Like the
one I took.
Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to
become a
certified permaculture designer.? And afterward I told
people that I
was now a certified permaculture designer.
A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and
heard this
same thing:? "no - taking a PDC does not make you a
certified
permaculture designer."???So I double
checked:? the ad was still up
for the class I took and it still said I would be a
certified
permaculture designer.
I can see the need for more levels of certification.?
I would really
like to support that.???And I think that if
you stick to saying that
completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will
punish the
people that are in the know and reward the people that are
not.
So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm
going to
assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture
designer"
I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and
nothing formal
beyond that.
As for the bit about two college classes vs. a
degree:? Well, in the
java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer)
and there
are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40
hours)
designed to get you to pass the exam.? And this is
considered one of
the toughest exams.? And then they have other, more
advanced, exams
for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the
like.
To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of
embracing the
flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that
are a bit
more clear.
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
<toby@patternliteracy.com>
wrote:
Beeja and everyone,you a "certified permaculture designer." It's an
A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make
introductory course. I urge people not to say that, as it's
a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that I
was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the
certificate means. It is the first step toward becoming a
designer, which, in the system BIll set up, meant that after
two years of additional, full-time work or its equivalent in
design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in
permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a
designer.
the same amount of class time as two college courses. If you
The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly
took chemistry 101 and 102, you would never call yourself a
chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the PDC.
list--there was no attachment. Good luck with the course, at
BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this
any rate!
Permaculture Designer, we
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
For those of you interested to become a certified
Darjeeling on 14th -28th. Thisare hosting another course this November in
India for the last 7 years!is the longest running PDC course happening in
sustainable lifestyle
Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of
configuration here:design!
Attached is the flyer and registration form.
Hope to see you there!
Warm Regards,
Ameli
...
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user
to search these archives:http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 19:08:36 -0500
From: Dick Pierce <dickpiercedesigns@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
Message-ID:
<AANLkTik8r3=n-=nx62JhdwPMWm1rkyXj2cXP_DSsevAU@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
A topic of most import to me. Thanks for bringing it up - it needs to come
up from time to time as the inadvertent use of Certification is reasonably
rampant.
I fully agree with and support Toby's opinion and answer (which comes right
out of the PDC curriculum, etc.). The PDC is a Permaculture Design
Certificate, recognized in most places/organizations as the base course
necessary to take advanced courses and to embark on what nominally/normally
is a 2-year apprentice, intern, assistant, portfolio/syllabus-building term
before applying for a PC Diploma in Australia or Certification in the UK and
?France? or via an informal honor system in the US and other lands.
Calling a person with a PDC "certified" is not correct, reduces those
efforts and people that have a formal and rigorous certification/diploma
program. I would request, as has been done in the past, that all PDC
instructors/facilitators review their files, brochures, websites, course
descriptions, etc. to check them to be sure they only refer to a PDC
Certificate as the result of taking a PDC Course. A quick google of
Permaculture "Certification" will reveal the number of references that need
changing.
Thanks for listening, please take action.
Dick Pierce
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 5:47 PM, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:
The awkward part of all this is that there are PDCs that are billed as
becoming a certified permaculture designer. Like the one I took.
Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to become a
certified permaculture designer. And afterward I told people that I
was now a certified permaculture designer.
A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and heard this
same thing: "no - taking a PDC does not make you a certified
permaculture designer." So I double checked: the ad was still up
for the class I took and it still said I would be a certified
permaculture designer.
I can see the need for more levels of certification. I would really
like to support that. And I think that if you stick to saying that
completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will punish the
people that are in the know and reward the people that are not.
So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm going to
assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture designer"
I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and nothing formal
beyond that.
As for the bit about two college classes vs. a degree: Well, in the
java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer) and there
are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40 hours)
designed to get you to pass the exam. And this is considered one of
the toughest exams. And then they have other, more advanced, exams
for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the like.
To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of embracing the
flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that are a bit
more clear.
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
<toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:
Beeja and everyone,permaculture designer." It's an introductory course. I urge people not to
A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make you a "certified
say that, as it's a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that
I was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the certificate
means. It is the first step toward becoming a designer, which, in the system
BIll set up, meant that after two years of additional, full-time work or its
equivalent in design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in
permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a designer.
class time as two college courses. If you took chemistry 101 and 102, you
The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly the same amount of
would never call yourself a chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the
PDC.
attachment. Good luck with the course, at any rate!
BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no
we
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer,
Thisare hosting another course this November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th.
years!is the longest running PDC course happening in India for the last 7
archives:
Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle
design!
Attached is the flyer and registration form.
Hope to see you there!
Warm Regards,
Ameli
...
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Read the public message archives here:
https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these
brackets)]site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
archives:List Usage & Guidelines:
http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
Permaculture Mailing List Blog
http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
_______________________________________________
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--
DickPierceDesigns@gmail.com
SE-NE (summer) & Austin, TX (winter)
Cell-512-992-8858 (all-season)
www.DickPierceDesigns.com <http://www.dickpiercedesigns.com/>
Just Completed: 4 Courses of citizen Gardener-Basic. Next Course starts on
Jan 15 - http://citizengardener.grouply.com/.
And, just started: Fall 2010 Permaculture Decign - through Dec 11. Local
Food Grad Potluck & Celebration - Sun Dec 12 (TBA)
Next PDC starts on Jan. 24th; great Christmas present.
Dick's PC-Bio. on www.austinperm.com/
You Tube Dick Pierce for video clips
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:59:05 -0400
From: Killian O'Brien <admin@pri-de.org>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
Message-ID:
<7E471FF35774474AA10A2EEEF1CAB26A014A02640DA0@P1EC1EVS03.HMC1.COMCAST.NET>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
"Every PDC I know of gives a certificate at the end of the course saying "Permaculture Design
Course" and none of them say "trainee." I was told by my teacher that I should apprentice
for minimum two years to become a teacher, but not a designer."
"The word "permaculture" can be used by anybody adhering to the ethics and principles
expressed herein. The only restriction on use is that of teaching; only graduates of a Permaculture
Institute can teach "permaculture"... "
Page x of the manual. Sufficiently vague. How 'bout someone just send an
e-mail to Tagari? Nevermind. Done. (Hello Lisa, Bill, et al...)
Cheers,
Killian O'Brien
PRI-De
admin@pri-de.org
(313) 647-4015
killiankob@yahoo.com
(760) 617-4693
-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Cory Brennan
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:25 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
Every PDC I know of gives a certificate at the end of the course saying "Permaculture Design Course" and none of them say "trainee."? I was told by my teacher that I should apprentice for minimum two years to become a teacher, but not a designer. I personally felt I needed to apprentice longer than that before I took on teaching a full design course. But I did some designs well before I finished the two year apprenticeship and did pretty good. I knew when to go to people more expert than me if I had a question about something. I also had a pretty good idea of what I didn't know, and boned up and reviewed it, etc. I feel that jumping out there and starting to design increased my learning rate tremendously because I had to deal with real world situations and see what failed and what worked.
I tell my students that they get the certificate when the course is done but that is only the beginning of their training.? I try to make clear what they still don't know at the end of the course and I try to make it real to them throughout the course that permaculture is a science that embraces many specialty sciences such as climatology, biology, etc, etc, etc. We offer apprenticeships and also encourage them to apprentice with others, to get multiple viewpoints and experiences.From my viewpoint, I knew so much more about conscious, sustainable design at the end of the course than the people i was designing for that I could call myself certified, compared to them. I also did the course over six months and read some of the key references during that time - in a two week course it's harder to do that.I appreciate the depth of experience and skill that permaculturists with decades of experience have and am well aware and respectful of the difference between them and a new graduate.
While I understand how much a new graduate doesn't know, I also can appreciate how much they do know compared to the average person. My goal as an instructor is to make sure my students actually know what a permaculture design needs to incorporate and are willing to go to experts (native plant specialists, natural builders, more experienced permaculturists, etc) to get the info they need in order to properly do the design. In my experience, I've never seen a new graduate take on a major project on their own. They do seem to know their limitations for the most part and partner up. A lot of them don't do anything beyond their own gardens.
While I resonate with what you're saying, Toby, and I feel I understand why you would want to make the point, I just wanted to put in a plug for letting people have the certificate as I think overall it may do more good than harm. You may have had different experiences than me and if so, I'm listening.
Cory
--- On Fri, 10/22/10, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:
From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: [permaculture] official certification
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 3:47 PM
The awkward part of all this is that
there are PDCs that are billed as
becoming a certified permaculture designer.? Like the
one I took.
Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to
become a
certified permaculture designer.? And afterward I told
people that I
was now a certified permaculture designer.
A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and
heard this
same thing:? "no - taking a PDC does not make you a
certified
permaculture designer."???So I double
checked:? the ad was still up
for the class I took and it still said I would be a
certified
permaculture designer.
I can see the need for more levels of certification.?
I would really
like to support that.???And I think that if
you stick to saying that
completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will
punish the
people that are in the know and reward the people that are
not.
So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm
going to
assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture
designer"
I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and
nothing formal
beyond that.
As for the bit about two college classes vs. a
degree:? Well, in the
java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer)
and there
are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40
hours)
designed to get you to pass the exam.? And this is
considered one of
the toughest exams.? And then they have other, more
advanced, exams
for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the
like.
To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of
embracing the
flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that
are a bit
more clear.
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
<toby@patternliteracy.com>
wrote:
Beeja and everyone,you a "certified permaculture designer." It's an
A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make
introductory course. I urge people not to say that, as it's
a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that I
was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the
certificate means. It is the first step toward becoming a
designer, which, in the system BIll set up, meant that after
two years of additional, full-time work or its equivalent in
design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in
permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a
designer.
the same amount of class time as two college courses. If you
The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly
took chemistry 101 and 102, you would never call yourself a
chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the PDC.
list--there was no attachment. Good luck with the course, at
BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this
any rate!
Permaculture Designer, we
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
For those of you interested to become a certified
Darjeeling on 14th -28th. Thisare hosting another course this November in
India for the last 7 years!is the longest running PDC course happening in
sustainable lifestyle
Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of
configuration here:design!
Attached is the flyer and registration form.
Hope to see you there!
Warm Regards,
Ameli
...
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:42:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cory <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
Message-ID: <181896.55847.qm@web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Thank you for your clarity. There is quite a lot of confusion around the term. I would love to see a formal certification or diploma process established in the US. Meanwhile I will continue to push the concept of honor system (which is a great way to express it) and facilitate apprenticeships and continued education which to me will never stop. The natural world is a teacher of immense depth and width. C
On Oct 22, 2010, at 8:08 PM, Dick Pierce <dickpiercedesigns@gmail.com> wrote:
A topic of most import to me. Thanks for bringing it up - it needs to come
up from time to time as the inadvertent use of Certification is reasonably
rampant.
I fully agree with and support Toby's opinion and answer (which comes right
out of the PDC curriculum, etc.). The PDC is a Permaculture Design
Certificate, recognized in most places/organizations as the base course
necessary to take advanced courses and to embark on what nominally/normally
is a 2-year apprentice, intern, assistant, portfolio/syllabus-building term
before applying for a PC Diploma in Australia or Certification in the UK and
?France? or via an informal honor system in the US and other lands.
Calling a person with a PDC "certified" is not correct, reduces those
efforts and people that have a formal and rigorous certification/diploma
program. I would request, as has been done in the past, that all PDC
instructors/facilitators review their files, brochures, websites, course
descriptions, etc. to check them to be sure they only refer to a PDC
Certificate as the result of taking a PDC Course. A quick google of
Permaculture "Certification" will reveal the number of references that need
changing.
Thanks for listening, please take action.
Dick Pierce
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 5:47 PM, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:
The awkward part of all this is that there are PDCs that are billed as
becoming a certified permaculture designer. Like the one I took.
Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to become a
certified permaculture designer. And afterward I told people that I
was now a certified permaculture designer.
A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and heard this
same thing: "no - taking a PDC does not make you a certified
permaculture designer." So I double checked: the ad was still up
for the class I took and it still said I would be a certified
permaculture designer.
I can see the need for more levels of certification. I would really
like to support that. And I think that if you stick to saying that
completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will punish the
people that are in the know and reward the people that are not.
So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm going to
assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture designer"
I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and nothing formal
beyond that.
As for the bit about two college classes vs. a degree: Well, in the
java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer) and there
are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40 hours)
designed to get you to pass the exam. And this is considered one of
the toughest exams. And then they have other, more advanced, exams
for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the like.
To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of embracing the
flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that are a bit
more clear.
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
<toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:
Beeja and everyone,
A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make you a "certified
permaculture designer." It's an introductory course. I urge people not to
say that, as it's a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that
I was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the certificate
means. It is the first step toward becoming a designer, which, in the system
BIll set up, meant that after two years of additional, full-time work or its
equivalent in design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in
permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a designer.
The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly the same amount of
class time as two college courses. If you took chemistry 101 and 102, you
would never call yourself a chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the
PDC.
BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no
attachment. Good luck with the course, at any rate!
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer,
we
are hosting another course this November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th.
This
is the longest running PDC course happening in India for the last 7
years!
Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle
design!
Attached is the flyer and registration form.
Hope to see you there!
Warm Regards,
Ameli
...
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--
DickPierceDesigns@gmail.com
SE-NE (summer) & Austin, TX (winter)
Cell-512-992-8858 (all-season)
www.DickPierceDesigns.com <http://www.dickpiercedesigns.com/>
Just Completed: 4 Courses of citizen Gardener-Basic. Next Course starts on
Jan 15 - http://citizengardener.grouply.com/.
And, just started: Fall 2010 Permaculture Decign - through Dec 11. Local
Food Grad Potluck & Celebration - Sun Dec 12 (TBA)
Next PDC starts on Jan. 24th; great Christmas present.
Dick's PC-Bio. on www.austinperm.com/
You Tube Dick Pierce for video clips
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