On May 5, 2010, at 3:43 PM, jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
If a person says that the ends justifies the means, or if they say that gmo's may be acceptable, then they don't seem like a permaculturist.
Hmm. Doesn't sound like you really read anything I wrote. You've put words in my mouth that I never said. Stop it; please learn to read without projecting your fears onto me.
Can you entertain the idea that not every statement Monsanto makes is a lie? Yes, they are using those statements to justify doing stupid and destructive things, but that does not make them untrue. And if you are going to comment on the subject, you should learn something about it, like the difference between GE techniques and GMOs. I don't approve of GMO release; I never said I did. GE techniques, however, have been used to make cancer, blood disease, and arthritis medications that have saved or improved the lives of countless hundreds of thousands, and it's done without release of organisms. A number of my friends and family would be dead without them. If you can find one iota of ecological harm that's been done by the creation of those drugs, I'll gladly back right down.
Back to the subject: There was a great article about a year ago in the NY Review of Books by Freeman Dyson that pointed out that horizontal gene transfer--the transfer of genes between wildly different organisms--was the main source of evolutionary change for most of life's existence. There was no such thing as a species for the ; no real barriers to gene exchange. The evolution of sex and the species barrier is relatively recent, only in existence for a small percentage of life's tenure, and only for a relative few organisms. Dyson went on to speculate that the advent of easy, available genetic engineering kits--like chemistry sets for kids--would mean the end of the brief window of individual species. Horizontal gene transfer would again be the norm, but this time directed by humans. I found that last a pretty frightening thought, but I appreciated his pointing out that horizontal gene transfer is the rule, not the exception.
I just had the thought that maybe our fears of GMOs are similar to the largely groundless fears that the natives-only crowd have about exotic species: they'll take over; they'll ruin everything. Superweeds may be bad for farmers; who knows if they are harmful in any larger sense. I'm not sure that I'm ready to start thinking like that, but it's worth considering.
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
On May 5, 2010, at 3:43 PM, jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
If a person says that the ends justifies the means, or if they say that gmo's may be acceptable, then they don't seem like a permaculturist. The refrain of "I am a geneticist" and that Nature does it anyways is straight out of testimonyby Monsanto I've heard countless times at hearings and in reviewing eis filings.
Are even permaculture gurus subject to losing their focus?
From: toby@patternliteracy.com
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 19:07:37 -0700
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
As a former geneticist, I want to point out that nature transfers genes between species, between families, even between phyla and kingdoms. It was viruses that taught geneticists how to do it; viruses move genes between the most distantly related organisms with great frequency and ease, making the genetically engineered tomato with a fish gene look like child's play. Nature is far ahead of us in the breeding world, and is doing things we can barely dream of.
It makes no more sense to condemn genetic engineering itself than it does to condemn a hammer or a computer. It's a tool. A permaculturist doesn't rule out a tool simply because of its origin; if we did we wouldn't use hammers, computers, or anything else that's a product of an unsustainable culture. The techniques of genetic modification are not evil; it's the godawful stupid things they do with them that are the evil. If we can talk about using technical solutions like hair mats and mycelium to clean up oil spills (with all their pluses and minuses), then we ought to include GMO microbes that eat oil in the toolkit. None of them is going to solve the oil problem, but while we work on the technical level, we work on other levels too.
My sense is that activism, even Jensen's violent kind, isn't going to bring civilization down--and I like Derrick a lot, and I speak as an activist. The elites are much better at violence than anyone else. I think oil will just get too scarce, and the crash will solve a lot of those problems. I just hope it happens soon enough.
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
More information:
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
And: http://www.richsoil.com
Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.