Jim -- I wasn't trying to put down Southern Baptists, or those who believe in JC, or those who don't, or those who think they're "fairy tales" (or even liberal literary theorists). Sorry if it came out that way. The point that I was trying to make is that NONE of these stances is a given any more -- the person sitting next to you could just as easily believe in Buddha, Mohammad, Christ, or be an atheist, or something else entirely. The person on the other side of you believes something completely different. There are no universal spiritual truths that are agreed upon any more. That doesn't mean that there might not actually be universal spiritual truths (I personally happen to believe there are, as I believe did Percy) just that the 20th century didn't make that easy to find...it obscured such things, and often, denied such things. But people need this and as a result we have existential loneliness and alienation of our times. That's the problem with the century -- but also the gift of the century. If society doesn't give a spirituality to you, then you have to search for the truth that really is there. KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Wesson To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] Re: Some Random Thoughts, Largely Unrelated, Based on Previous Discussions and Readings well, it has more to do with the way you put down others like your'good ole southern baptist students,and people who belive in JC(no less. and people who believe in fairy tales. it is just a rather mean spitited attack on people really doing you no harm just because they think differently than you. has nothing to di with literary theory,marx,atheists or stuff like that. i think Percy thought it was ok to respect others thoughts.he even might have been 'the last gentleman' peace, jim --- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey AT charter.net> wrote:Well, if you do figure it out, let me know! I had a literary theory professor once -- young, largely liberal leftist, Marxist, atheist (as is often found in the academy these days) -- who refused to debate Percy with me, saying, "I would be hostile to your point of view" (since he knew Percy's stance before we even began). I was sorely disappointed, as I thought his thoughts would inform mine -- especially since we began from different premises. Either I would discover flaws in my arguments, or new points to consider, or change it slightly or entirely, or, in the end, find it confirmed and strengthened -- or all of the above in some way. Anyway, perhaps the important consideration here is: what did Percy think about it? Didn't he think that the 20th century culture (on the whole) lacked spirituality? Wasn't that one of his primary messages? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Wesson To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] Re: Some Random Thoughts, Largely Unrelated, Based on Previous Discussions and Readingsdefines us. There are many sub-cultures that do so -- I live in Atlanta, andawhole lot of my students are good ole South Georgia Baptists, firmlyviewingthemselves with a meaning, and defining themselves and their placeandpurpose in the world as spiritual creatures -- saved by Jesus Christ noless-- but this is a sub-culture and they have just traveled only50-100miles from their hometown to sit side by side in a classroom (andatwork I suppose as well) with others -- the majority I'd say -- who think they're living a fairy tale. hi,well, i am not religious but you may have this all wrong and i can not even explain what i mean! peace, jimOops -- same message, but Plain Text format thistime. I keep forgetting.KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Karey L. Perkins To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] Re: Some Random Thoughts,Largely Unrelated, Based onPrevious Discussions and Readings Aristotle thought the teenagers of his day wereall going to pot. An essayin Percy's Signposts says more (American) menwerekilled in the Civil Warthan WWI and WWII put together. On a physicallevel, the 20th century wasn'tany worse than other centuries... On a materiallevel, our lives areterrific (Percy would agree) and far better thanthey have been ever (atleast the Northern Hemisphere). The 9/11tragedyand the wars that arefollowing it are tragedies of course -- but noworse than those that camebefore and actually far less I would say. However, on a spiritual level, we don't know whywe're here, or who weare -- THIS is what's different about ourcentury.On an ETHICAL level, however, I'd have to saythiscentury is no better orworse than any others... We can still learn tobe"ethical" in thistransient, anonymous, capitalist, postmodernsociety -- ethical implies astatement about our behavior in the physicalworld, and the laws of naturestill apply. I.E.: If you're lazy and don'twork, you won't produce andhence you will be fired, become hungry, andbecomemotivated to work. Ifyou're a freeloader, people will know it, resentyou, abandon you, andyou'll soon lose people to freeload off of. Ifyou cheat and lie, you will(eventually) be found out. Enron and WorldCom.Being unethical justdoesn't work -- in the long run -- and thestructure of the universe willensure that we learn our lessons and actethicallyto succeed, or not learnour lessons and fail. "What doesn't work willeventually fail." There areexceptions, of course, but generally our world--THE world -- works thatway. However, ethics is different from spirituality--though the two are relatedmore often than not. Spirituality implies asenseof meaning and purposebehind our actions. Spirituality impliessomething that is transcendent ofthe physical world. Spirituality implies, esp.for Percy, somethinghuman -- different from the animals -- andentailssuch concepts andexperiences of "joy" and "alienation" and a"soul"and a "dark night" and"pattern" and "purpose." In other words, I can act ethically for thephysical rewards/benefits ofthat and have no spiritual purpose behind it atall (though spiritualityusually entails ethical actions). You referredtothe "ThanatosSyndrome" -- in it you have the characterscavorting about engaging in allsorts of meaningless sexual acts -- it's notthatthat's unethical that isthe problem with this -- but that it shows theabsence of spirituality --there's no meaning or purpose behind what shouldbe a spiritual act. In TS,the water is tampered with to make a happysocietyon a physical plane, butthere's no purpose to the happiness, notranscendent meaning related tothat. (In this way, to me, Thanatos Syndrome isvery closely related toHuxley's Brave New World -- in events and intheme.)Huston Smith (best known for his "WorldReligions"work) has a great littlebook, a pretty quick read, called "Beyond thePost-Modern Mind" (1989?though that might not be the first edition). Init he says the middle ages=== message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. 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