Every time the leadership changes the corporate memory takes a hit. You must reestablish relationships, convince potential mutual aid users of your capabilities, and keep up your qualifications. Having a pack rat mentality and large filing cabinets also help.
From: "msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org" <msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org> To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009
12:21:11 PM Subject: MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3
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Never said it DIDN'T exist. :) Of course they do. But without
the right coordiantion and understanding they don't go together as I mentioned.
It's like sayin sugar, vanilla, chocolate, flour, water, salt exist...doesn't mean they are put together all the time and in the right mixture to make Mom's homemade chocolate chip cookies!
And being that I trained in CA with what was considered a backwoods county there, and then moved to Southern IL where SAR understanding is TRULY 20 years behind, I can tell you that many of you and your discussions, will never see light in this part of the world...not for at least 10 or 20 years. Local ESDAs still send out fire, spontanteous vols, cops, local boys with dogs... and the coordination is left to the wind.
Things get done. Don't get me wrong. But they are not what you see in more prepared and ready SAR environments. It is changing. But very slowly.
The scenario I proposed sounds like a dream comparitively and
our team here strives to work towards that goal of cooperation. But it takes more than one team to do it. And this state's head EMA (IEMA) is not focusing on SAR at all. In fact they cut it out of their organization in 2001. Left it to individual counties to care for. And the decline began.
I love listening in on groups such as this. I glean pearls of wisdom all the time. And I appreciate all of your enthusiasm that you have for what you do. I just try to take away a few things now and then that will help 1) our team and 2) SAR in this region. Just wish our state would take as much interest.
Good luck to you all, and if you lived in such a blessed area such as Irv, or those of you in CA and other similar places, count your stars! :) Or move here and help us out! lol
In Pennsylvania anyway, if not the rest of the world:
Let's see-flankers were introduced to the air scent dog world about 1982 or 3, formal use of air scent horses 1986, we had a VHF license and permission to talk to other agencies from 1980 or so (and the state SAR council had a statewide multi-channel license by 1987) and one member did have a TV equipped model helicopter
by 1989. So, much of the world you want has been around for a while, and coordinated responses as well. (By the way it has been illegal for an organization to have a GMRS license for at least 10 years, individuals only). The problem is that people don't study history, they relive it.
What we didn't have 10 years ago was portable GPS and laptops, but then we didn't need as many types of spare batteries either.
Message: 2 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 21:50:43 -0500 From: "Trailriding-Texas"
<trlrider2@trailriding-texas.us> Subject: Re: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :) To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <9A100C8742824903B2D41E8429117494@K1STX> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Irv, It is not illegal to have a group/organization GMRS license! In fact, there are groups that have managed to keep theirs from expiring, but once it expires, it will not be re-issued!
There is a move, to have the FCC re-instate the ability for legitimate and recognized public service groups to have an organizational GMRS license again. It will take allot of work, and some organized response to the request!
Many organizations that did at one time
have the group GMRS license, instead of fighting to keep it, just applied for commercial licenses, in the same general area of the band! This was easy, since real true GMRS radios are programmable, such as the Motorola HT-50's and newer units! ----- Original Message ----- From: IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN To: 'Mounted search and rescue' Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 7:51 AM Subject: Re: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)
In Pennsylvania anyway, if not the rest of the world:
Let's see-flankers were introduced to the air scent dog world about 1982 or 3, formal use of air scent horses 1986, we had a VHF license and permission to talk to other agencies from 1980 or so (and the state SAR council had a statewide multi-channel license by 1987) and one member did have a TV equipped model helicopter by 1989. So, much of the world you want has been around for a while, and
coordinated responses as well. (By the way it has been illegal for an organization to have a GMRS license for at least 10 years, individuals only). The problem is that people don't study history, they relive it.
What we didn't have 10 years ago was portable GPS and laptops, but then we didn't need as many types of spare batteries either.
Most of the grandfathered community repeaters belonged to REACT teams
that have gone the way of unfunded NGO's or lost their sites to cellular, PCS, or news.
Several of the Amateur and REACT units were hung off the TV towers around here, until the TV stations needed the space for electronic news gathering. Most commercial users switched to other UHF community repeater services or went to 800 MHz dispatch. The rules changed over 20 years ago and no new or relocated licenses were to be issued to any organization from that point, and commercial usage had to cease. Further, any existing systems will have to narrow band by 2013, when all channels below 512 MHz have to narrow band. The propagation problems at 460-465 MHz and the interference problems due to uncontrolled use are also considerations. Almost all of the Town Watch, and other users switched to cell phones (which are often free) or 800 push to talk services for better coverage and fewer hassles with other
users. And since the systems cannot be relocated when a building changes ownership, or a paying use for the roof space come up, most GMRS community sites will disappear from the urban and suburban landscape, let alone the licenses.
It is just easier to get a public safety license, the equipment is as cheap as GMRS, and better quality, rugged, etc. Our county has kept its 150 MHZ licenses active for tone and voice dispatch, VHF-Hi is used by many townships for public works departments, police and fire companies that had their own base stations kept the licenses when they switched to 800. For the most part these are HT1000 or later systems that will reprogram. We also have 2 counties that are in the 500 MHz region, one is an analog voice trunk system. Other agencies have also remained on 150 or even lower frequencies due to terrain or other considerations. PA DCNR uses
150 band in the state parks and forests, the PA Turnpike uses 150 for all uses, including patrol and communication with off Turnpike responders. Many of these systems are very elaborate and will remain in use for many years just due to the costs of replacing them. And don't forget the CAP, USCG, USFS, Amtrak, and other national users of the 150 band. And while you may think a Motorola is field programmable, corporate policy is only that Motorola authorized shops can have Motorola programming equipment and anybody using 3rd party equipment or software is a patent infringer. And if your system does use HT50's, Motrans, Motrac's, Maritrans, or similar pre-1995 equipment you may not be able to narrow band it and Motorola has suddenly realized how many systems are out there it can convert to its version of TETRA which it has been sitting on for years. This will use a digital voice signal and a 2 slot
TDMA (the EU version is 4 slots) so everybody will have to buy new radios and only from Moto since they own the rights in North America. Those of you who use Nextel should be aware that Sprint has sold all the IDEN infrastructure to Erricson which will maintain the system and complete the rebanding process while providing the service exclusively to Sprint-Nextel for now.
The usual IMSA coordination fee for public safety in 150 fire is $200 per transmit channel for each fixed site, and the same for each mobile only channel. Right now, APCO, one of the other coordination groups, is running a sale for narrow-banding and minor non-engineering changes (names and addresses of contact persons, etc.) and charging only $100 per license not per channel or per site.
We currently have 2 Motorola 800MHz trunk units, a county issued 2500 series, and a grant purchased 5000
series operated under the county license and maintained by the county's authorized in house shop under an extended warranty. We also have use of 10 B-K (Relm now) 148-174 MHz portables with at least 14 channels. Several are "master radios" with keyboards and displays, the rest are clones. These are E, and M series. One E portable and an LMH 35 watt mobile were bought new over 20 years ago as dealer samples. The rest were bought used through a dealer for about $100 for each master, and $55 for each clone. We bought 2 new 1400 MWH batteries for each ($50 per radio). The dealer threw in King smart chargers and whatever accessories (cases and speaker mikes) that had come in with them. These are military specification radios, (AN/PRC125 I think) can be field programmed, narrow banded channel by channel, power settings can be programmed or set by the user on the fly (1.5 WRF or
5WRF), scan, priority, transmitter time outs, CG, ANI, and the keyboard units can generate Touch-Tone for paging, dialing (DCNR has auto patch) or repeater control. There is also a computerized ACT 125 battery reconditioner that was a dealer sample. We have tried FRS and other low power UHF without good results in the woods, or even across a field. The Kings are programmed with 14 channels-2 statewide SAR simplex and 2 repeaters, 3 county simplex fire channels, 1 public works channel, park police simplex, 3 DCNR repeaters, 1 DCNR talk-around, and what was a county EMA repeater that is now a paging channel. We hope to change channel 14 to a Turnpike zone repeater soon.
It is not illegal to have a group/organization GMRS license! In fact, there are groups that have managed to keep theirs from expiring, but once it expires, it will not be re-issued! Non-conforming use-go off the air for a very short period and lose the license.
There is a move, to have the FCC re-instate the ability for legitimate and recognized public service groups to have an organizational GMRS license again. It will take allot of work, and some organized response to the request! Unlikely-the new nationwide 700 public/private network is designed to handle this use and
recognized public service agencies are either eligible already for public safety or dedicated channels for their use (see Red Cross, Salvation Army, AAA for examples). Strictly local organizations that are not considered public safety go private land mobile radio services, or more likely Nextel (IDEN) or a cell phone based push to talk (CDMA). The police mobile data systems around here use Verizon Wireless VPN.
Many organizations that did at one time have the group GMRS license, instead of fighting to keep it, just applied for commercial licenses, in the same general area of the band! This was easy, since real true GMRS radios are programmable, such as the Motorola HT-50's and newer units!
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)
In Pennsylvania anyway, if not the rest of the world:
Let's see-flankers were introduced to the air scent dog world about 1982 or 3, formal use of air scent horses 1986, we had a VHF license and permission to talk to other agencies from 1980 or so (and the state SAR council had a statewide multi-channel license by 1987) and one member did have a TV equipped model helicopter by 1989. So, much of the world you want has been around for a while, and coordinated responses as well. (By the way it has been illegal for an organization to have a GMRS license for at least 10 years, individuals only). The problem is that people don't
study history, they relive it.
What we didn't have 10 years ago was portable GPS and laptops, but then we didn't need as many types of spare batteries either.
Much of the problem is that as people come and go the knowledge comes and goes. Unless someone writes it down and allows others to learn from the history
It is lost and much be relearned. Most volunteer responders burn out or leave the area after 5 years or so. I have been in SAR research and actively participating since 1979 with field activity breaks (but not a research break) due to work or health totaling 5 years over that time. All the people I trained as search mangers have left the field years ago. Most of the emergency responders
active today don't know there are search managers available. Or SAR resources available in many cases.
Under FEMA guidelines each emergency response plan must be an all hazards plan and include wilderness SAR, Large Animal / Livestock Rescue, Disaster Relocation, and Food stock protection plans. There are NFPA standards that cover wilderness SAR and ASTM Standards as well. NASAR is in the certificate business, and is trying to organize the state and regional SAR coordinators into a NASAR SIG.
When I started it was somewhat easier to try new techniques as there were fewer experts out there to argue with. When the SAR organization I was chief of in the early 1980's through 1995 insisted that dog handlers not work alone and carry stuff like radios (which they didn't have because the organizations were too small to afford them), the handlers screamed like
the proverbial stuck pig. But as their dogs learned to discriminate they realized how much more territory they could cover with three persons and a dog versus one handler and one dog. We convinced 3 nationally known handlers and the concept was accepted across the country. We started teaching MSO as a fire academy course around 1986, just as NASAR eliminated volunteer instructors. There were close to 40 students in the first class.
What you have to realize is that volunteer fire companies usually have rapid turnover in leadership, as do some volunteer SAR organizations that annually elect officers.
Every time the leadership changes the corporate memory takes a hit. You must reestablish relationships, convince potential mutual aid users of your capabilities, and keep up your qualifications. Having a pack rat mentality and large filing cabinets also help.
Message: 5 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 22:47:31 -0700 From: "Jorene Downs" <Jorene@CEOates.com> Subject: Re: [MSAR] Radios To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <003c01ca13fd$e4973990$adc5acb0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Just as an FYI - there are many agencies still using VHF.
- Jorene
From: IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN
Most of the grandfathered community
repeaters belonged to REACT teams that have gone the way of unfunded NGO's or lost their sites to cellular, PCS, or news.
Several of the Amateur and REACT units were hung off the TV towers around here, until the TV stations needed the space for electronic news gathering. Most commercial users switched to other UHF community repeater services or went to 800 MHz dispatch. [.]
Message: 6 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 23:22:55 -0700 From: "Jorene Downs" <Jorene@CEOates.com> Subject: [MSAR] SSCC / Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :) To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <005001ca1402$d6682500$83386f00$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Clarification / Correction on IRV's comment. The State SAR Coordinators have been meeting annually with feds and others for many years, with NASAR www.nasar.org providing the conference meeting space and encouraging participation. As of May 2009 this evolved to forming a State SAR Coordinators Council (SSCC) that is nationwide in the USA, with about 20 states represented and about 20 agency representatives (FEMA, DHS, NPS, AFRCC, etc.) at the last meeting. The SSCC
formed under the NASAR umbrella so it could immediately have non-profit 501(c)(3) status.
This is a *giant* stride for SAR in the USA, with substantial credit going to Cole Brown (MD SAR Coordinator) for getting the new council formed. Cole is also the elected Chair of the SSCC, Matt Scharper (CA SAR Coordinator) is Vice-Chair, and Byron Thompson (LA SAR Coordinator) is Secretary.
These statements may again hold true for PA,
but do not hold water in the rest of the country. In many areas of this country, relying on any type of power hungry trunking system, whether is be conventional or digital, is asking for disaster in itself!
As you are well aware, SAR/MSAR does not always in perfect conditions. Parts of the country were Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Earthquakes and other natural and man made disasters occur, and the power grid can be taken down in a instant, many of the systems you have mentions are useless!
Will address this more after work and VOAD meeting this evening! But, 700 mhz systems are severely limited in use and range, without a complex network to back it up. Same goes for 800/900 systems! IN real disaster and emergency setup - simple is the answer!
Off to work,
Louis Upton
On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 00:37 -0400, IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN wrote: > Most of the grandfathered community repeaters
belonged to REACT teams > that have gone the way of unfunded NGO?s or lost their sites to > cellular, PCS, or news. > > Several of the Amateur and REACT units were hung off the TV towers > around here, until the TV stations needed the space for electronic > news gathering. Most commercial users switched to other UHF community > repeater services or went to 800 MHz dispatch. The rules changed > over ......
1) A group license is not require to own, operate and maintain a GMRS repeater!
2) Personally, sitting next to me, are: a 440 mhz ham portable repeater, a GMRS portable repeater. A 450 mhz range portable repeater is in the process of being built, licensed to 2 organizations that I work with. that I maintain and keep available for whatever event may require them to be use! All have the ability to be set-up quickly, operate on or off the grid, and provide reliable and long term communications. There is also parts and pieces laying here, for another GMRS system that will be fixed at a location that can service 2 state parks in the area!
Why, the
trunking systems fail and simple communications are needed! And Nextel (or similiar systems) are a joke in rural Texas, Oklahoma and New Mexico!
I am a licensed in both the Amateur and GMRS segments!
Louis
On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 00:37 -0400, IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN wrote: > Most of the grandfathered community repeaters belonged to REACT teams > that have gone the way of unfunded NGO?s or lost their sites to > cellular, PCS, or news. > > Several of the Amateur and REACT units were hung off the TV towers > around here, until the TV stations needed the space for electronic >
Read what I wrote--NGO SAR is mostly highband simplex around here (155.160, 155.265, a mobile only input channel repeatered out on either 160 or 265, and DCNR channels mostly). Most agencies that were large area coverage are still highband and some are still as low as 33MHz.
Amateur repeaters, 6M, 10M, 2M, and UHF typically lack standby power at fixed sites other than government buildings or commercial radio sites. And require a suitably licensed control operator(s). Before 800 came in the local 450-512 police repeaters all lacked long term emergency power.
A trunk is extremely complex to build and manage. Each county in the 5 county region uses a different system-- Philadelphia and Montgomery use Motorola 800 digital simulcast that differ only in software release. Bucks use a 500MHz analog voice system, Delaware uses a 500 MHz conventional system (with some 45MHz fire still) and Chester uses ELTR at 800MHz. Each of these systems is elaborately backed up and made redundant and load shedding to support police, fire, and EMS operations on a daily basis. And most cost in excess of $20 Million to build the fixed sites. Paging or alerting is on different systems with some counties using simulcast alphanumeric, tone and voice, open voice and RSAN as redundant systems. Local government operations (streets, highways, trash, water and sewer) are for the most part on private systems. Yes, our county tower sites have an on site Diesel power pack while the commercial
cellular equipment does not. We have a backup PSAP and several other sites where 9-1-1 can be answered. Because the NFPA wants every firefighter to have a portable radio there are lots of portables available in the region for each system. Local fire companies have spent a fortune to comply with this rule, especially those along county borders where multiple radios are needed. And many still maintain the highband portables and licenses from before the trunk. The county would prefer we operate on their system so that we are integrated with other responder services and can be more easily supported by their field communications vans and repeaters. The problem is that many other agencies we work with are not 800 systems or may be not compatible with the county.
Yesterday (8-02) the Bucks County fire system went down. Unlike the others in the area which have backups they don't and lost alerting for
several hours.
An individual, whether a natural person or a corporation, can license almost anywhere except GMRS where natural persons are the only eligibles for new licenses/ major modification since 1987. Shared access repeaters in GMRS are difficult to manage with each user having to license the site and the control operator having to make sure no commercial use is made of the site. And one member of a group can take on the license and operation of a GMRS repeater, so long as he pays for it since you cannot charge to access a non-commercial site. Since 1987 GMRS has been limited to family recreational use.
We don't use amateur equipment because of licensing and availability issues.
We don't use trunk 800 in the field usually because we can't afford it or the agency we are supporting doesn't use it. GMRS does not cover, even in our urban areas, and while Nextel is available the
service isn't worth the cost.
If you want to study public safety communications go to APCO International, the association of public safety communicators. There are many articles in their archives concerning disaster survivability, redundancy, and features needed in current public safety systems. But you have to read what is written carefully because proper English is used, not texting speech (which dates back to the telegraph where saving letters was important in terms of keystrokes).