From: "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr>
To: <JimStinehart AT aol.com>, <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>, <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] words with the same root letters: XCC-N TMR
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:11:17 +0100
----- Original Message -----
From: JimStinehart AT aol.com
To: fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr ; leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il ;
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] words with the same root letters: XCC-N TMR
Dr. Fournet:
We are trying to figure out the meaning and identity of XCC-N TMR at Genesis
14: 7 [heth-tsade-tsade-nun tav-mem-resh].
***
Apparently, that word is XaCaCoN TaMaR (disregarding length).
A.
***
1. Although madi is the native Hurrian word for “wisdom”, we see
xa-tsi-tsi, which is a loanword from Akkadian, used for “wisdom” by the
Hurrians at p. 22 of your website:
“*[ijadama xadzidzidama] and to Ea and the wisdom (Hasis)”
***
Yes
Note that Ea is also a loanword.
A.
***
2. The Akkadian cuneiform of the Amarna Letters distinguishes tsade/C from
shin/$ and sin/% [or s]. XCC in Hebrew is not a perfect match to xa-si-su
in Akkadian or to xa-si in Amarna Letter EA 175, because the sibilants there
are sin/%/s, not tsade/C. Though the Hurrian sibilants are not always
clear, your rendering of xa-tsi-tsi at p. 87 of your website shows that XCC
in Hebrew is a perfect match to xa-tsi-tsi in Hurrian.
***
No
Cuneiform <s> is an affricate [ts] and should be rendered by Samekh which
was also an affricate [ts] at that time.
Tsade means that this word cannot be Hurrian.
A.
***
3. As to a -ni suffix for this word, the native Hurrian word for “wisdom”
is madi, and for “wise” is madonni, with a -ni ending. Thus an abstract
noun like madi or xa-tsi-tsi in Hurrian can take -ni [or -nni] as a suffix.
Such a suffix would be rendered as -N in Biblical Hebrew.
***
The suffix is -nni with two -n- and has nothing to do with the Article -ni.
A.
***
4. Tam-ri means “nine” in Hurrian. The “wisdom” of the Hurrians as to
primeval matters centered around the number nine, as the only three numbers
I know of in Hurrian primeval mythology are (i) nine, (ii) nine, and (iii)
nine thousand. In particular, the Hurrians thought that each of the first
two primeval gods had reigned for nine years.
***
?
I have no idea where you get that idea from.
A.
***
5. Accordingly, XCC-N TMR at Genesis 14: 7 makes perfect sense when
analyzed from a Hurrian perspective. XCC is xa-tsi-tsi, being an Akkadian
loanword that the Hurrians on occasion used for “wisdom”. -N is the
ubiquitous Hurrian suffix that can apply to “wisdom” in Hurrian, whether
madi or xa-tsi-tsi. TMR is the Hurrian word for “nine”. Given that Hurrian
primeval mythology centers on the number nine, the following makes sense in
Hurrian as a city name, though it likely would make little sense to any
other peoples: “Wisdom-the Nine”. That phrase would be rendered in
Biblical Hebrew as XCC-N TMR, just as we see at Genesis 14: 7.
***
Neither the consonants nor the vowels match.
And I would add, they don't match as usual
but it does not seem to deter you.
A.
***
6. There are two alternative explanations of xasi at Amarna Letter EA 175.
I have previously suggested that xasi is a shortened form of xasisu in
Akkadian, and as such is a shortened form of xa-tsi-tsi in Hurrian. Another
possibility is that xasi is the Hurrian word for “to hear”, which is usually
spelled xaz- or xa$- in Hurrian. The sibilants are not an exact match,
though they’re close, and the meaning is different, but it’s somewhat
related. Both of these approaches can be matched to Hurrian names at Nuzi,
which include XaCi-Ya [or XaZi-Ya], XaCianNi [or XaZianNi], Xasi-ya and
Xa$i-ya, Xasi-u and Xa$i-u, and Xa$i. Each of Xasi-u and Xasi-ya look a lot
like Xa-si at Amarna Letter EA 175, with the only difference being that the
Nuzi names add a standard Hurrian suffix. Since the Hurrian word for “to
hear” is spelled xaz- or xa$-, but not xas-, one has to ask if Xasi-ya and
Xasi-u at Nuzi, and the city name Xasi, may be plays on a shortened form of
xasisi, the Hurrian/Akkadian word for “wisdom”. At a minimum, all of the
following are possible in Hurrian, either as names at Nuzi or as common
words: XaCiCi, XaCiCi-Ni, Xasisi, XaCi and Xasi. The first three clearly
mean “wisdom”. The last two are ambiguous: they may mean “to hear”, or
they may be a shortened form of “wisdom”. One has to wonder if Xasi-ya was
ambiguous to the Hurrians themselves [where the -ya suffix is a standard
Hurrian theophoric]. It could either mean “Hear God”, if Xasi is an
unattested form of the verb “to hear”, which is normally spelled xaz- or
xa$- [but not xas-], or it could mean “Wisdom of God”, if Xasi is a
shortened form of xasisi, meaning “wisdom”. Perhaps it meant both? Could
Xasi-ya mean both, whereas Xa$i-ya, by contrast, would solely mean “Hear
God”? We must remember that the Hurrians very often shortened words, such
as substituting Te- for Te$up, in proper names. Even if every one of these
Nuzi names is based on the Hurrian verb “to hear”, rather than on the
Hurrian/Akkadian noun “wisdom”, one can still imagine XaCiCi-Ni/“the Wisdom”
being shortened in Hurrian to Xasi/“hear” [though the meanings would be
different]. The Hurrian name Xasi at Nuzi might, however, be a shortened
form of the Hurrian/Akkadian word for “wisdom”, xasisi. Either way, (i) a
Hurrian city name XaCiCi-Ni could get shortened to Xasi [with it being
unclear if the meaning changes], and (ii) the fact that XaCiCi is a loanword
from Akkadian and can alternatively be spelled Xasisi in Hurrian makes it
easier to see Xasi as being a shortened form of XaCiCi-Ni [regardless of
whether the meaning changes].
***
You're extremely creative, but I'm afraid it will never convince anybody.
A.
***
7. Your repeated insistence that xa-tsi-tsi in Hurrian is a loanword from
xa-si-su in Akkadian greatly strengthens my case. That creates a natural
link between XCC-N at Genesis 14: 7 and Xa-si at Amarna Letter EA 175.
Finding Xasi + suffix as a Hurrian name at Nuzi also helps. I see XCC-N
TMR/xa-tsi-tsi-ni tam-ri at Genesis 14: 7 as being one and the same place as
Xa-si at Amarna Letter EA 175. The former is the long-form Hurrian
rendering, and the latter is a shortened version in Akkadian and/or Hurrian,
Just as an American can shorten “San Francisco” to “Frisco”, so could a
Hurrian shorten Xa-tsi-tsi-ni Tam-ri to Xa-si.
***
That's anachronical.