From: Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk AT concentric.net>
To: AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com, b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ABH aris Jacob & Psalm 29
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 19:56:42 -0500
Yes, as long as you don't identify the angel with G-d. The angel was
just an employee of G-d. The angel was not "El". "El" is another
name of G-d, which no one can see, that is why G-d sent a
"representative" of that aspect of Himself, which He called "El".
Shoshanna
Why do you think Jacob wrestled with an angel. He wrestled with El.
"Penuel" means he saw the face of El (and lived).
--- On Fri, 2/6/09, aris hobeth <ahobeth AT yahoo.com> wrote:
From: aris hobeth <ahobeth AT yahoo.com>
Subject: ABH aris Jacob & Psalm 29
To: AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 1:21 AM
I take the Jacob's wrestling match with the angel to actually be a
conciliatory (?) fight between brothers Jacob and Esau over (royal)
succession. They seemed to have settled in a draw, perhaps a deal
involving property and kingship. Jacob had come offering riches to
his brother, from whom he had taken his inheritance, as a peace ploy,
or as proof that he had done a better job than Esau would have.
Rubbing it in his nose perhaps? But Jacob's gifts and his deference
to his cheated brother, seems to have made peace between the pair
(read the two states each ruled). The title "angel" given to flater
his brother, seems to have sealed the deal. Better to make peace than
war.
Sly Jacob also fathered Joseph, son of his favorite wife. Joseph in
an obtuse way ended up virtual ruler of Egypt. Who was that favorite
wife? Egyptian royalty? Jacob may somehow planned the ruse that
allowed Joseph's brother's to appear not so inferior to that favored
son, Joseph. Perhaps those Midianites who "bought" Joseph from his
brothers, were actually sent by their father to gather up the star
son, known to be chosen to become the powerful Egyptian ruler.
Later on, when Moses (a royal Egyptian of the ethnic group) wrote the
history of previous successions, he was explaining the political
boundries and their relations to the royal families. It was not a
straight line of succession because the lands were inherited in
different ways. Sometimes only the oldest son (a common theme)
inherited everything. Sometimes, as in Joseph's family, each son got
a patch of land, which often became separate states.
And sometimes, when there were many sons, as in David's case, the
sons vied to be chosen top dog, or they tried to eliminate the
competition. When Absalom, David's oldest, died, the sadness may have
been that he was David's favorite, the chosen successor, who turned
traitor, or who failed to unseat his powerful father. Or actually,
David prefered his favored wife's son, Solomon, and just allowed the
death of the competition (unlike the bout between the brothers
Jacob and Esau.) Certainly this is speculation, but the dynastic
succession given in the Old Testament is just a history of the
victors. Like any other history, the Bible tells about the generals,
the kings, the wars, the politics, and the royal intrigues.
Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth
____________ _________ _________ __
From: andrej1234au <andrej1234au@ yahoo.com. au>
To: AncientBibleHistory @yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 3:31:14 AM
Subject: ABH Re: Psalm 29
Hi Mary
The angel that wrestled with Jacob said he'd put
his name on Jacob so Jacob's name became IsRAEL..
Well, it doesn't really say that an angel sought to put his name on
Jacob, merely that a man wrestled with him till daybreak and then
named him Israel as he had prevailed. This is the Hebrew language:
the root crh means 'to strive, to contend'.
It does interest me that none have seen this as the antipode of the
__._,_.___
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