Thanks for responding!
The question regarding Daniel 9:2 is closely related to the questions I had
from Jeremiah because Daniel makes SPECIFIC reference that he got his
information from Jeremiah. To me, it seems very important to take that into
consideration when trying to figure out what exactly Daniel meant when he
wrote chapter 9, verse 2.
Which is the main reason why I was also stated the two initial quesitions regarding the grammar of Jeremiah 25:11 and Jeremiah 29:10. I don't know Hebrew, which is why I am posting to this list.
Here is what I mean in summary:
ALL of the Bibles that I have ever seen - ALL of them render Jeremiah 25:11 (the very first reference to the 70 years prophecy in the Bible) as a two part thought. That is, some of them render it as a compound sentence joined with ", and"; however, most render it with a semicolon or a period. It doesn't matter how you do it, they all mean that there are two separate thoughts expressed. I've gotten ahold of one Hebraist, and he said that there are clearly two thoughts there even in Hebrew - which makes sense because every Bible renders it as two separate thoughts. This means grammatically the seventy years attaches to the "servitude" not the "desolations". Most Bibles render Jeremiah 29:10 (except maybe 2 or 3) as "for Babylon". Some of them even render it as possessive - "Babylon's seventy years"
So when I read Jeremiah 25:11 and Jeremiah 29:10, grammatically speaking,
Jeremiah NEVER equates the 70 years with Jerusalem's desolations.
The emphasis is always on Babylon. In Jeremiah 25 it is seventy years of "servitude" for "these nations" (plural).
In Jeremiah 29:10 it is seventy years "for Babylon" - putting emphasis on Babylon's supremacy.
Honestly, Daniel may not have even had Jeremiah 25. He was exiled as part of the first wave (Daniel 1:1),
as you had noted. So he may have only had Jeremiah 29 - which was a letter to the exiles. But even if we
assume he read what was later to became Jeremiah 25, then IT STILL points to servitude for "these
nations" and seventy years "for Babylon". Nothing that I have read specifically attaches the
desolations of Jerusalem with the 70 years, IN JEREMIAH.
Now when I read the NIV translating Daniel as saying the 70 years = desolations of Jerusalem, I am confused because he specifically references Jeremiah.
Let's come at it another way. This is another dimension to it that is confusing to me. When Daniel wrote chapter 9, the Jews were still in Jerusalem.
They had not been released yet - that's the whole reason for his prayer in
chapter 9. Daniel has just witnessed the end of the Babylonian empire in
chapter 5. If you go back to Jeremiah chapter 25, read verse 12, and then go
back to Jeremiah 29 and read the verses after verse 10, there was an order
that was to be followed - a clear sequence of events.
FIRST the 70 years would end THEN Babylon would be called to account THEN the Jews would return to God - with repentence, fasting, etc. THEN the Jews would return to their land
At the time Daniel wrote the prayer recored in chapter 9, the Jews were on
step #3 - remember Babylon was called to account in ch. 5.
It is interesting that Daniel set out to do exactly what came next on the
list of event - repent and pray to God. The Jews were on step #3, NOT step 4.
That would come a few years later when they got back to their land. Until
then, it would remain desolated. But look, step #1 was the 70 years ending.
So the 70 years ended at least 2-3 years before the desolations did. How can
they be the same period?
See what I mean?
That is why I am having such a hard time with the NIV. Now if you look at an interlinear for Daniel 9:2, you'll notice the word rendered "fulfill", "complete", "accomplish" is strong number H4390. I've looked it up in a Hebrew dictionary and it definitely means "bring to and end" - "accomplish" - "fulfill". I may not know Hebrew, but words are words because they have meaning. And unless Jeremiah was using some sort of idiom, then the NIV left out any sense of the word rendered "fulfill".
When the word is included, it brings the readers attention to the end of the desolations corresponding to the end of the 70 years. Now THAT matches the order set forth in Jeremiah.
Just a side note. The seventy years could be a round. However, it is not necessary. If you take Jeremiah at face value - as 70 years of servitude for "these nations" to the "king of Babylon", then you can start with the full conquering of the Babylonian empire in 609 BC.... 609-539 = 70 years exactly.
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