permaculture

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

Hi Michael,

I too think this is a fascinating discussion although I have the feeling we 
all generally agree on the main issues except that we have all local details 
that differ a good bit.
Daniel Jager in Portugal needs trees to give his annuals some protection 
from a blazing sun. In Ireland I need trees for wind protection. Without 
them we would have our annuals ripped out of the ground almost. At the 
moment we have 130 km per hour gales once more and big trees are bending 
ominously. Some may keel over or break, not unusual, but without them I 
would expect a lot more structural damage.

John

> Fascinating discussion.
>
> A few opinions based on my own extensive experience with intensive
> annual gardens and food forests.
>
> To me it is not an either/or question. Both have their merits in most 
> systems. In
> very small, urban situations I would advise people focus on intensive 
> gardens
> with annuals and short-statured perennials with the aim to maximize food 
> production in a small
> space. Urban areas always have lots of spare nutrients flowing around 
> which can
> be captured (at least at this point in time).
>
> It is hard for me to imagine a household permaculture system
> that does not include an intensive zone one home-garden as well as a food
> forest. I agree that intensive vegetable gardens need more inputs. John 
> Jeavons (in his Grow Bio-Intensive
> systems) deals with this by devoting a large part of the garden area to 
> growing
> green manure and fertilizer crops to supply the inputs on site. My 
> personal experience is that a perennial
> food forest system creates additional inputs that can be moved to the 
> annual
> part of the system.
>
> I garden in a north-temperate climate of the Inland
> Northwest with reasonably fertile soils. I have found that heavy 
> applications of inputs (manures, minerals and
> micro-nutrients) in year one can jump-start a system that will need few to 
> no
> inputs in latter seasons. What I do is
> plant long-term trees, short-term trees, shrubs, perennial herbs and 
> annual vegetables
> all in the first year. I aim for a productive harvest in year one from the
> annuals. Over time the productivity of
> the system changes from annuals to short term perennials to long-term
> perennials. I want abundant harvests
> starting from year one. I find that
> production declines per unit area after about year 5 or 6 as the canopy 
> shades
> out the understory. However the amount
> of production per unit of input (time and materials) is as high or higher 
> then
> the early stages of the agro-ecosystem. In other words, annual garden 
> systems are higher productivity per unit
> area, but less productive in terms of inputs. The REALLY BIG plus of the 
> long term perennial system is that it
> sequesters more and more carbon and provides more biodiversity and 
> ecosystem
> functions then annual gardens do. This
> is HUGELY important on the global scale of things. A world dominated by 
> food production of
> annual plants is far less valuable than a world dominated by perennial 
> food
> production systems. Once again, this is
> not an either/or question. Both are
> needed. As one goes into the subtropics
> and tropics things change and I believe that the role of annual vegetables 
> is
> less important then in the temperate zones; ie. food forests should 
> provide for
> a larger % of food production than annual gardens as compared to temperate
> systems.
>
> My take is that everyone has valuable perspectives, but it
> takes many of us discussing these things to get clarity.
>
> Michael Pilarski
>
>
> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
>
>
> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, January 31, 2014 12:37 PM, John D'hondt <dhondt@eircom.net> 
> wrote:
>
>
> Kevin, I have killed almost 800 foxes on my farm. I love foxes and really
> don't enjoy killing them. We had a few years that there were two fox 
> burrows
> with families on the farm that I knew about and I tried to tell these 
> foxes
> that if they left mine alone that I would not come after them. That 
> actually
> worked for a while but eventually they have eaten all the wildlive and 
> they
> really have no choice but to break the truce. And then I do go after them
> reluctantly. Until it becomes clear how many foxes there are around when I
> become a bit more careless and more efficient.
> Thing is that if one particular fox is taking poultry (one and sometimes 
> two
> ducks or hens a day, every day, and a goose on Sundays) and I want to take
> out this particular fox it takes me around 40 hours of tracking and 
> sitting
> out in the rain and waiting until you get so frozen you can no longer pull
> that trigger when your fox does show himself. I can usually sense in what
> general area this fox is hiding out and often I feel that he knows that I
> know that he knows.
> When I simply put traps and snares on all the fox paths that I have found 
> it
> only takes me an hour or two. And often I will catch 3-4 foxes the first
> night (record is 15 in one night). If poultry keeps disappearing I keep up
> the trapping and I may kill 20 or more foxes before I get the culprit. I
> really don't like doing this but there really is no choice when you can 
> not
> afford loosing so many expensive birds. We have old breeds and they get to
> hatch their own eggs and it takes at least 8-9 months of feeding before 
> they
> are useful for anything. (a modern broiler is exactly 31 days old when you
> see it lying in the supermarket but this breed does not survive even one 
> day
> in the open here).
>
> Long story but the long and short of it is that if you want to survive and
> you can't afford the losses you HAVE to do something about it. I am sure
> that hedgehogs, rabbits, hares and ground breeding birds like their lives
> too and if I don't thin out the foxes they get exterminated. And no, fox
> skins have no value in Europe. No woman would be willing to be seen in a
> fox fur coat. I give the brushes/tails to a friend who is in a gunclub 
> that
> pays 1 euro for them.
>
> I can understand that you like raccoons and so do I. But again if it were 
> a
> matter of survival... It is impossible to completely fox or mink proof 
> here
> unless you really completely restrict your birds in their natural 
> movements.
> And I am certain that your raccoons are even handier in getting in a pen. 
> I
> also know for a fact that raccoon stew is a good bit tastier than fox 
> stew.
> :)
> And squirrell is not at all bad to eat either. Here we still have the red
> squirrel and I would not like the kill one of the very few around. We have
> otters frequenting our fish pond but I can not kill those either. So far
> they have not done too much damage. Mink is far worse (they were bred for
> the fur here but when that trade collapsed some 20 years ago they were let
> loose in the environment and they have been a curse for anything alive) 
> and
> I will get any I can.
> I do not kill ravens or birds of prey but magpies and grey crows are so
> plentiful that I feel I have to try and do something about them. That is
> easy when you hear young nestlings screaming that are being taken by 
> magpies
> or when you find lambs with the eyes and tongue gone but still alive and a
> flock of these grey-backs taking off.
> No, it is not an easy life.
> All the best,
> John
>
>
>
> > John,
> >
> > I tell you what, varmits is a real problem. I will happily donate to
> > you one of our urban coyotes. That'll take care of your foxes & minks.
> > Can you harvest them for their pelts? Our wild foxes are gone, but
> > were never very numerous. It's the raccoons that come after our
> > chickens. You have to raccoon proof the pens, not a simple task. They
> > love to eat the oil gland on the chicken rump, which pretty much kills
> > the chicken. I grew up on the bayou and we hand raised about 20
> > raccoon kits each year. It is very hard for me to treat them as an
> > enemy. The coyotes also pose a certain threat to the chickens, but to
> > a lesser degree since there are fewer of them.
> >
> > It's the squirrels that are the worst. They will eat ALL your fruits
> > and fruiting vegetables. There have been several early mornings that I
> > have been caught by the neighbors, whilst in my drawers, trying to
> > eradicate them by hook or by crook. I still can't get my friends or
> > family to dine on city squirrel. We have lost many large trees in the
> > city due to hurricanes & drought and with them the hawks & owls. That
> > is why there are so many squirrels. I definitely advocate for and
> > plant a lot of timber species around town to provide for predatory
> > bird habitat. It also brings their prey, squirrels. You made me
> > realize I spend a lot of my time in the the warmer months trapping or
> > dispatching varmits. It ain't such easy livin'!
> >
> > Kevin Topek
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 30, 2014, at 6:09 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
> >
> > > Predation is one of our problems too Kevin. But the annual garden
> > > traditionally suffered much more than our tree crops from small
> > > rodents as
> > > did our poultry and lambs from foxes and mink.
> > > Since suitable predators of varmints have disappeared in many places
> > > there
> > > is no option but to do some thinning of pests ourselves. There have
> > > been
> > > years that I spent fully half my time on only that.
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > > > I'm going to agree with Toby on this issue of productivity. I have an
> > > > urban garden on the Texas Gulf Coast that produces a fair bit of
> > > > citrus with some stone & pome fruits too. Vegetables are far more
> > > > productive in the long run. My predation issues on nuts are extreme
> > > > and that also goes for stone & pome fruits and especially papayas.
> > > > The
> > > > urban garden predators here are squirrels, rats, raccoons & opossums.
> > > > The citrus is usually left alone, except the raccoons will eat the
> > > > mandarins that are easy to peel. Tree canopy encourages predation by
> > > > tree climbing/dwelling species. It is a difficult task to get fruit
> > > > to
> > > > the point of harvest. Gotta pick the papayas early!
> > > >
> > > > Kevin Topek
> > > > www.permaculturedesign.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:00 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Food forests need inputs, too. Most of the food forests I've
> > > > > seen--20 or 30 at this point--provide fruit and berries for part of
> > > > > the year, with potential for freezing and drying (energy inputs) to
> > > > > extend the fruit harvest, and a few yield modest amounts of nuts for
> > > > > their owners. At this point, few of them are old enough (10-15
> > > > > years) to yield many nuts, and animal competition for nuts is a huge
> > > > > problem. Some of them supply greens, but most of them are beset with
> > > > > huge insect and fungal problems from too-high plant density and
> > > > > moisture levels. You can run chickens in them to eat bugs, but the
> > > > > chickens eat the food plants, too.
> > > > >
> > > > > Food forests require large inputs of mulch, as Darrell says-- the
> > > > > very small one at my rental property gets several yards each year--
> > > > > and don't yet supply many calories. You can't live on fruit. In
> > > > > theory, food forests could do better, but in practice they seem damn
> > > > > hard to manage, and provide trivial amounts of food. Everyone I know
> > > > > with a food forest gets their calories from annual grains, tubers,
> > > > > squashes, beans, and other non-food forest plants, just like
> > > > > everyone else. Very few people get most of their calories from nuts.
> > > > > I keep hearing (and used to say myself) that food forests are the
> > > > > way to grow lots of food, but I'm not seeing it happening. Lots of
> > > > > theory and "this is such a great idea that it's got to work!" with
> > > > > no real data or experience, and very few calories actually coming
> > > > > out of food forests. And plenty of inputs going in.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's a law of physics: if you are harvesting from a system, you must
> > > > > provide inputs to replace what is lost in harvest. Food forests need
> > > > > inputs just as annual gardens do. They do some deep-root nutrient
> > > > > extraction, but not enough to supply all their nutrients. I deeply
> > > > > love the idea and reality of food forests, but as substantial
> > > > > producers of dietary needs, they are nowhere near annual gardens at
> > > > > this point.
> > > > >
> > > > > Toby
> > > > > http://patternliteracy.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jan 30, 2014, at 10:37 AM, John D'hondt wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry Darrell but I side with April in this. If you export
> > > > > > vegetables and
> > > > > > thus nutrients from your land you need inputs. These inputs could
> > > > > > be used
> > > > > > for a food forest and once this was established that would recycle
> > > > > > under
> > > > > > it's own power.
> > > > > > For thousands of years in China farmers did work with a closed
> > > > > > system. They
> > > > > > would go to market in the morning with a cart of produce and they
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > return in the evening with the nightsoil of their customers.
> > > > > > Unthinkable
> > > > > > now. But if you export nutrients even from the most fertile soil
> > > > > > you run
> > > > > > into serious problems after about 20 years.
> > > > > > John
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > well April, them's fightin words for sure..... but seriously......
> > > > > > > there is not enough mulch in all the world for food forests as I
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > seen them. Now if you want to limit the term permaculture to some
> > > > > > > ideal
> > > > > > > dream world applications and be a purist to ecosystem energy
> > > > > > > equations,
> > > > > > > that is fine with me, but we will have very little common ground
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > disussion. If you want to discuss permaculture design a a
> > > > > > > profession
> > > > > > > that leads people to regenerative ecological solutions then we can
> > > > > > > disuss it.
> > > > > > > When I met Bill Mollison he advised me to develop a market garden
> > > > > > > with the application of permaculture . seemed like good advice at
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > time, and so here I am still developing the finer points of
> > > > > > > Permacuture
> > > > > > > Market Gardening.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Darrell
> > > > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > > > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:06:30 +1100, A Sampson-Kelly
> > > > > > > <april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Market Gardens are wonderful, don't get me misquoted here,
> > > > > > > > but they are not the permaculture message.
> > > > > > > > Market gardens export nutrients and organic matter, they are
> > > > > > > > constantly needing inputs to compensate for the exports.
> > > > > > > > as we all know Permaculture design aims to be a closed nutrient
> > > > > > > > cycle,
> > > > > > > > so when something like a gorgeous market garden is branded as
> > > > > > > > permaculture it muddies the message.
> > > > > > > > When you need to keep importing nutrients and minerals and
> > > > > > > > organic
> > > > > > > > matter you are starting to talk about extra "work" and extra
> > > > > > > > management.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When I first came to this site in 1993 we spent 6 hours every
> > > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > weekend in summer just mowing the lawns,
> > > > > > > > we definitely invest a lot less work and time on this site now.
> > > > > > > > So, there is no trouble with permaculture on my site and the
> > > > > > > > reduced
> > > > > > > > work load is clear here.
> > > > > > > > http://permaculturevisions.com/what-is-permaculture-2/905-2/the-difference-between-organic-gardening-and-permaculture/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -- *April S-Kelly*
> > > > > > > > Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526
> > > > > > > > Australia
> > > > > > > > Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
> > > > > > > > Google+: MotherGoosePermaculture A-S-Kelly
> > > > > > > > We are a carbon-negative business.
> > > > > > > > http://www.permaculturevisions.com
> > > > > > > > <http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
> > > > > > > > *Please consider your environment before printing this email on
> > > > > > > > old-fashioned paper.*
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 26/01/2014 2:22 PM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> > > > > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > > > > > > > permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > > > > > > > permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> > > > > > > > > specific
> > > > > > > > > than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Today's Topics:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> > > > > > > > > 2. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> > > > > > > > > 3. New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep
> > > > > > > > >   Nature Connection, and Natural Health (Lawrence London)
> > > > > > > > > 4. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Michael Pilarski)
> > > > > > > > > 5. 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd (christopher
> > > > > > > > > nesbitt)
> > > > > > > > > 6. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> > > > > > > > > 7. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Koreen Brennan)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Message: 1
> > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> > > > > > > > > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > > > > > <holger@tierramor.org>
> > > > > > > > > Message-ID: 
> > > > > > > > > <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > > > > > > > > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> > > > > > > > > visited
> > > > > > > > > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > Design,
> > > > > > > > > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the
> > > > > > > > > "permaculture "
> > > > > > > > > was?
> > > > > > > > > I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > > > > > > > > different associates, in various venues. We always teach
> > > > > > > > > permaculture
> > > > > > > > > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > > > > > > > > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > encompasses all
> > > > > > > > > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on
> > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
> > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
> > > > > > > > > not how
> > > > > > > > > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > > > > > > > > permaculture design .
> > > > > > > > > As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more
> > > > > > > > > ecologically
> > > > > > > > > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > > > > > > > > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may
> > > > > > > > > mulch,
> > > > > > > > > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > > > > > > > > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > > > > > > > > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to
> > > > > > > > > achieve the
> > > > > > > > > yields the client seeks.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read
> > > > > > > > > such self
> > > > > > > > > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > > > > > > > > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > > > > > > > > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > > > > > > > > experience .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no
> > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real
> > > > > > > > > advice.
> > > > > > > > > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> > > > > > > > > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think
> > > > > > > > > he, or
> > > > > > > > > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield
> > > > > > > > > with no
> > > > > > > > > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that
> > > > > > > > > entirely. I
> > > > > > > > > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day
> > > > > > > > > at my
> > > > > > > > > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.
> > > > > > > > > "Great
> > > > > > > > > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> > > > > > > > > Society
> > > > > > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > > > > > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
> > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > > > > > > > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
> > > > > > > > > > some of
> > > > > > > > > > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > organic food production...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> > > > > > > > > > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
> > > > > > > > > > etc.)
> > > > > > > > > > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
> > > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
> > > > > > > > > > PC
> > > > > > > > > > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
> > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
> > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
> > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > systems and realize that not everything works as well in
> > > > > > > > > > realiity as
> > > > > > > > > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
> > > > > > > > > > definitly not
> > > > > > > > > > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
> > > > > > > > > > prominent
> > > > > > > > > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in
> > > > > > > > > > thios
> > > > > > > > > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
> > > > > > > > > > courses"), and
> > > > > > > > > > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> > > > > > > > > > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
> > > > > > > > > > systems,
> > > > > > > > > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
> > > > > > > > > > evolve
> > > > > > > > > > over time in different climates & contexts, that the
> > > > > > > > > > imaginative
> > > > > > > > > > power of PC concepts get grounded.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Holger
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > > > escribi?:
> > > > > > > > > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> > > > > > > > > > > uninformed
> > > > > > > > > > > are up to
> > > > > > > > > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > > > > > > > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > > > > > > > > www.tierramor.org
> > > > > > > > > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > > > > > > > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > > > > > > > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> > > > > > > > > > toward
> > > > > > > > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > message archives:
> > > > > > > > > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Message: 2
> > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> > > > > > > > > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > > > > > <holger@tierramor.org>
> > > > > > > > > Message-ID: 
> > > > > > > > > <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > > > > > > > > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> > > > > > > > > visited
> > > > > > > > > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > Design,
> > > > > > > > > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the
> > > > > > > > > "permaculture "
> > > > > > > > > was?
> > > > > > > > > I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > > > > > > > > different associates, in various venues. We always teach
> > > > > > > > > permaculture
> > > > > > > > > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > > > > > > > > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > encompasses all
> > > > > > > > > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on
> > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
> > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
> > > > > > > > > not how
> > > > > > > > > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > > > > > > > > permaculture design .
> > > > > > > > > As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more
> > > > > > > > > ecologically
> > > > > > > > > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > > > > > > > > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may
> > > > > > > > > mulch,
> > > > > > > > > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > > > > > > > > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > > > > > > > > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to
> > > > > > > > > achieve the
> > > > > > > > > yields the client seeks.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read
> > > > > > > > > such self
> > > > > > > > > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > > > > > > > > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > > > > > > > > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > > > > > > > > experience .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no
> > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real
> > > > > > > > > advice.
> > > > > > > > > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> > > > > > > > > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think
> > > > > > > > > he, or
> > > > > > > > > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield
> > > > > > > > > with no
> > > > > > > > > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that
> > > > > > > > > entirely. I
> > > > > > > > > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day
> > > > > > > > > at my
> > > > > > > > > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.
> > > > > > > > > "Great
> > > > > > > > > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> > > > > > > > > Society
> > > > > > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > > > > > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
> > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > > > > > > > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
> > > > > > > > > > some of
> > > > > > > > > > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > organic food production...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> > > > > > > > > > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
> > > > > > > > > > etc.)
> > > > > > > > > > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
> > > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
> > > > > > > > > > PC
> > > > > > > > > > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
> > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
> > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
> > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > systems and realize that not everything works as well in
> > > > > > > > > > realiity as
> > > > > > > > > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
> > > > > > > > > > definitly not
> > > > > > > > > > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
> > > > > > > > > > prominent
> > > > > > > > > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in
> > > > > > > > > > thios
> > > > > > > > > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
> > > > > > > > > > courses"), and
> > > > > > > > > > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> > > > > > > > > > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
> > > > > > > > > > systems,
> > > > > > > > > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
> > > > > > > > > > evolve
> > > > > > > > > > over time in different climates & contexts, that the
> > > > > > > > > > imaginative
> > > > > > > > > > power of PC concepts get grounded.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Holger
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > > > escribi?:
> > > > > > > > > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> > > > > > > > > > > uninformed
> > > > > > > > > > > are up to
> > > > > > > > > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > > > > > > > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > > > > > > > > www.tierramor.org
> > > > > > > > > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > > > > > > > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > > > > > > > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> > > > > > > > > > toward
> > > > > > > > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > message archives:
> > > > > > > > > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Message: 3
> > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:45:20 -0500
> > > > > > > > > From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [permaculture] New residential PDC for 2014:
> > > > > > > > > Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > Design, Deep Nature Connection, and Natural Health
> > > > > > > > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > > > > > Message-ID:
> > > > > > > > > <CA+j2Q+B3K_mu0ksRJ7o3X+BKKcmjp1z8U08Wtvq-J0oFbAGuJg@mail.gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/pdc-2014/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep Nature
> > > > > > > > > Connection,
> > > > > > > > > and Natural Health
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > by Ludwig Appeltans on October 6, 2013
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > in Awareness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/awareness/>,
> > > > > > > > > Climate
> > > > > > > > > Change <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/climate-change/>,
> > > > > > > > > consciousness<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/
> > > > > > > > > consciousness/
> > > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > Courses <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/courses/>, Earth
> > > > > > > > > Ways'
> > > > > > > > > Farm<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/earth-ways-farm/>,
> > > > > > > > > Education <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/education/>,
> > > > > > > > > Environment<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/environment/>,
> > > > > > > > > evolution <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/evolution/>,
> > > > > > > > > Forest
> > > > > > > > > Garden<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/forest-garden/>,
> > > > > > > > > Gardening <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/gardening/>,
> > > > > > > > > Natural
> > > > > > > > > Pest
> > > > > > > > > Control
> > > > > > > > <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/natural-pest-control/>,
> > > > > > > > Nature
> > > > > > > > > Connection 
> > > > > > > > > <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/nature-connection/
> > > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > News
> > > > > > > > > & Events <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/news-events/>,
> > > > > > > > > Organic<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/organic/>,
> > > > > > > > > Permaculture <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/
> > > > > > > > > permaculture/>,
> > > > > > > > > Survival
> > > > > > > > > Skills <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/survival-skills/>,
> > > > > > > > > Tracking<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/tracking/>,
> > > > > > > > > Wilderness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wilderness/>,
> > > > > > > > > Wildlife<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wildlife/>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > July 4th, 6PM? July 18th, 1PM 2014. Anam Cara, Inverness,
> > > > > > > > > Highland,
> > > > > > > > > Scotland.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This holistic approach towards permaculture is a exciting new
> > > > > > > > > combination.
> > > > > > > > > It reflects the pioneering permaculture vision that Earth Ways
> > > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > developed over the years.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Permaculture starts with nature connection and is only complete
> > > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > are as healthy as they can be.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Permaculture is designing sustainable systems, modelled on
> > > > > > > > > nature.
> > > > > > > > > Re-connecting with nature to better understand her is an
> > > > > > > > > essential
> > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I?m pleased to tell you that the course will be of very high
> > > > > > > > > standards.
> > > > > > > > > Even better than the last one with our new addition to our
> > > > > > > > > crew:
> > > > > > > > > Klaudia
> > > > > > > > > van Gool. Ludwig Appeltans, Klaudia van Gool, Greg Sommer and
> > > > > > > > > Georgina
> > > > > > > > > Richardson will offer a fantastic 14 day intensive course at
> > > > > > > > > Anam
> > > > > > > > > Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>in Inverness.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Learn about natural systems and deepen your understanding of
> > > > > > > > > Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > Design, Forest Gardening and ecosystems. Be(come) connected to
> > > > > > > > > nature
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > learn how to design a permaculture diet with Georgina
> > > > > > > > > Richardson. She
> > > > > > > > > is a
> > > > > > > > > natural health chef. She will show us how to design ?a
> > > > > > > > > permaculture
> > > > > > > > > diet?
> > > > > > > > > and feed us this way for the full 14 days enabling us to
> > > > > > > > > experience how
> > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > body and mind feels when fed so healthily. Food that is good for
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > planet
> > > > > > > > > AND good for us!
> > > > > > > > > You will also have the opportunity to spend some time foraging,
> > > > > > > > > relaxing
> > > > > > > > > and exploring Scottish Highland?s nature, where you can discover
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > magnificent wildlife present in this stunning location.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The delightful flavour of this Permaculture Design Course will
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > upheld by
> > > > > > > > > the 4 awesome teachers working together, with the accents of
> > > > > > > > > Nature
> > > > > > > > > Connection and Natural Health making it a PDC with distinction.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Upon successful completion you will be awarded a certificate in
> > > > > > > > > Permaculture Design from the Permaculture Association Britain.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We?d love you to join us.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > More pictures from the last PDC?s can be seen here:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/gallery/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > or here:
> > > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/
> > > > > > > > 72157634771197666/<http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/
> > > > > > > > > <>
> > > > > > > > > FAQ
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > *- Why would I choose this course over other PDC?s? *
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you?re curious why I am so confident that this course is so
> > > > > > > > > wonderful,
> > > > > > > > > please read on:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - Teaching quality is unusually high with 4 teachers and
> > > > > > > > > unusual
> > > > > > > > > yet
> > > > > > > > > effective teaching methods. We each teach from our strengths,
> > > > > > > > lifting the
> > > > > > > > > level of the course higher, with more personal assistance.
> > > > > > > > Please check out
> > > > > > > > > the biography of the teachers to see what excellence we have to
> > > > > > > > share with
> > > > > > > > > you.
> > > > > > > > > - Perfect location; our venue is the beautiful Anam
> > > > > > > > > Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>,
> > > > > > > > > surrounded by the beautiful Scottish wildlife, which gives us
> > > > > > > > > excellent
> > > > > > > > > nature observation opportunities.
> > > > > > > > > - Our course gives you the opportunity to experience what life
> > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > like when we are treating our body to the healthiest and most
> > > > > > > > balanced diet
> > > > > > > > > one can design on a normal household budget. We will also give
> > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > tools you need to develop a permaculture diet.
> > > > > > > > > - The course will be taught on the premises of a beautiful new
> > > > > > > > > permaculture garden, which gives you an -on site- example of
> > > > > > > > how to change
> > > > > > > > > an organic garden into a permaculture garden and practice the
> > > > > > > > permaculture
> > > > > > > > > principles you?ll learn.
> > > > > > > > > - A wide variety of choice to make your practice design with a
> > > > > > > > > wide
> > > > > > > > > variety of expertise available from the teachers.
> > > > > > > > > - Most Permaculture Design courses offer only the 72 hours
> > > > > > > > > tuition
> > > > > > > > > required for the certificate. We also offer many more optional
> > > > > > > > > learning
> > > > > > > > > opportunities, making the course a holistic wonderful learning
> > > > > > > > experience.
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Message: 4
> > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST)
> > > > > > > > > From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > > > > > Message-ID:
> > > > > > > > > <1390693399.39730.YahooMailNeo@web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you
> > > > > > > > > completely.?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it
> > > > > > > > > was a
> > > > > > > > bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
> > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
> > > > > > > > ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> > > > > > > > dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as
> > > > > > > > every
> > > > > > > > pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> > > > > > > > forest).
> > > > > > > > > I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
> > > > > > > > Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she
> > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
> > > > > > > > Perhaps
> > > > > > > > it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
> > > > > > > > productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I
> > > > > > > > suspect
> > > > > > > > the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> > > > > > > > Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal
> > > > > > > > together.?
> > > > > > > > > here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> > > > > > > > minutes 37 seconds.
> > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Michael Pilarski
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > > > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > > > > > > > > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > > > > > > > > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > > <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > > > > > > > > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> > > > > > > > > visited
> > > > > > > > > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > Design,
> > > > > > > > > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the
> > > > > > > > > "permaculture "
> > > > > > > > > was?
> > > > > > > > > ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > > > > > > > > different associates, in various venues. We always teach
> > > > > > > > > permaculture
> > > > > > > > > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > > > > > > > > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > encompasses all
> > > > > > > > > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on
> > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
> > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
> > > > > > > > > not how
> > > > > > > > > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > > > > > > > > permaculture design .
> > > > > > > > > As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more
> > > > > > > > > ecologically
> > > > > > > > > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > > > > > > > > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may
> > > > > > > > > mulch,
> > > > > > > > > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > > > > > > > > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it,
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > > > > > > > > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to
> > > > > > > > > achieve the
> > > > > > > > > yields the client seeks.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read
> > > > > > > > > such self
> > > > > > > > > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > > > > > > > > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > > > > > > > > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > > > > > > > > experience .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no
> > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real
> > > > > > > > > advice.
> > > > > > > > > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
> > > > > > > > > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think
> > > > > > > > > he, or
> > > > > > > > > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield
> > > > > > > > > with no
> > > > > > > > > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that
> > > > > > > > > entirely. I
> > > > > > > > > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day
> > > > > > > > > at my
> > > > > > > > > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual.
> > > > > > > > > "Great
> > > > > > > > > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> > > > > > > > > Society
> > > > > > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > > > > > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
> > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > > > > > > > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
> > > > > > > > > > some of
> > > > > > > > > > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > organic food production...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> > > > > > > > > > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
> > > > > > > > > > etc.)
> > > > > > > > > > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
> > > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
> > > > > > > > > > PC
> > > > > > > > > > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
> > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
> > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
> > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > systems and realize that not everything works as well in
> > > > > > > > > > realiity as
> > > > > > > > > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
> > > > > > > > > > definitly not
> > > > > > > > > > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
> > > > > > > > > > prominent
> > > > > > > > > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in
> > > > > > > > > > thios
> > > > > > > > > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
> > > > > > > > > > courses"), and
> > > > > > > > > > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> > > > > > > > > > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
> > > > > > > > > > systems,
> > > > > > > > > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
> > > > > > > > > > evolve
> > > > > > > > > > over time in different climates & contexts, that the
> > > > > > > > > > imaginative
> > > > > > > > > > power of PC concepts get grounded.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Holger
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > > > escribi?:
> > > > > > > > > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> > > > > > > > > > > uninformed
> > > > > > > > > > > are up to
> > > > > > > > > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > > > > > > > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > > > > > > > > www.tierramor.org
> > > > > > > > > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > > > > > > > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > > > > > > > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> > > > > > > > > > toward
> > > > > > > > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > message archives:?
> > > > > > > > > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> > > > > > > > > toward
> > > > > > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > > > > message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/
> > > > > > > > > permaculture/
> > > > > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > > > > > > > Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Message: 5
> > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:20:44 -0600
> > > > > > > > > From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [permaculture] 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb
> > > > > > > > > 10-22nd
> > > > > > > > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > > > > > Message-ID: <7571FF21-5F54-4CB4-A0A6-D21647B2FFB2@mmrfbz.org>
> > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This will be our 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course. MMRF has
> > > > > > > > been managed to agroforestry over the last 25 years and is one of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > oldest permaculture projects in Central America. Come take a PDC
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > great teachers at a very well established permaculture project.
> > > > > > > > > 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course, February 10th through
> > > > > > > > > 22nd,
> > > > > > > > 2014 February 10th through 22nd, 2014
> > > > > > > > > Place: Maya Mountain Research Farm San Pedro Columbia, BELIZE
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Instructors: Albert Bates, Marisha Auerbach, Nicole Foss and
> > > > > > > > Christopher Nesbitt with local guest instructors.
> > > > > > > > > Cost:USD1250/Belize$2500 includes organic farm fresh meals, all
> > > > > > > > course materials and expeditions*, comfortable accommodation in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > farm, and a certificate of Permaculture Design upon completion of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > course.
> > > > > > > > > For Details, or to register, please contact Christopher at
> > > > > > > > info(a)mmrfbz.org.
> > > > > > > > > Through lecture, discussion, small groups, site visits and hands
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > experience, participants will gain the tools to create
> > > > > > > > sustainable,
> > > > > > > > ecologically based homes, farms, businesses and communities.
> > > > > > > > Tucked
> > > > > > > > into the foothills of the Maya Mountains, two miles up river from
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > village of San Pedro Columbia in southern Belize, Maya Mountain
> > > > > > > > Research Farm is a working demonstration farm and registered NGO
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > promotes sustainable agriculture, appropriate technology and food
> > > > > > > > security using permaculture principles and applied biodiversity.
> > > > > > > > > With over 25 years of organic management and conversion from an
> > > > > > > > abandoned cattle and citrus farm to a polyculture, MMRF is one of
> > > > > > > > Central Americas oldest permaculture farms. Students will get a
> > > > > > > > chance to see decades worth of design work applied at this
> > > > > > > > venue. A
> > > > > > > > fun video of the 2009 PDC is here, and some footage from the 2010
> > > > > > > > PDC
> > > > > > > > on Mexican TV, in Spanish is here, and here.
> > > > > > > > > Teachers: Albert Bates is a former lawyer, paramedic, graphic
> > > > > > > > artist and author of eleven books on energy, environment and law,
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > produced two films on ecovillages. He is the founder of the
> > > > > > > > Ecovillage Network of the Americas and was active in the creation
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the Global Ecovillage Network. He has lectured and universities
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > government agencies and worked on natural buildings, village
> > > > > > > > infrastructure, and permaculture landscapes on 6 continents. He
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > been teaching permaculture design courses since 1994.
> > > > > > > > > Marisha Auerbach has been actively practicing, studying, and
> > > > > > > > teaching Permaculture in the Pacific Northwest for over a decade,
> > > > > > > > specializing in food production, biodiversity, seedsaving,
> > > > > > > > ecology,
> > > > > > > > and useful plants. Her practical experience has been gained from
> > > > > > > > living and working in both urban and rural locations. She
> > > > > > > > currently
> > > > > > > > teaches permaculture courses at Oregon State University, Pacific
> > > > > > > > University, Bastyr University, and Portland Community College.
> > > > > > > > Marisha works with many organizations including The City Repair
> > > > > > > > Project, Aprovecho Education Center, Lost Valley Education
> > > > > > > > Center,
> > > > > > > > Fertile Ground Community Center, and Planet Repair. Marisha holds
> > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > advanced certificate in Permaculture Aid Work and has
> > > > > > > > participated in
> > > > > > > > permaculture projects from the forests of Vietnam to the Rocky
> > > > > > > > Mountains of the United States to the stressed conditions of
> > > > > > > > Haiti.
> > > > > > > > She can be found online at www.herbnwisdom.com.
> > > > > > > > > Nicole Foss is Senior Editor of The Automatic Earth, a big-
> > > > > > > > > picture
> > > > > > > > website. Since January 2008, she and her writing partner have
> > > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > chronicling and interpreting the on-going global credit crunch as
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > most pressing aspect of our current multi-faceted predicament.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > site integrates finance, energy, environment, psychology,
> > > > > > > > population
> > > > > > > > and real politik in order to explain why we find ourselves in a
> > > > > > > > state
> > > > > > > > of crisis and what we can do about it. Nicole is also an
> > > > > > > > international speaker on energy and global finance. She has
> > > > > > > > lectured
> > > > > > > > in hundreds of locations across North America, Europe, Australia
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > New Zealand, and has made many media appearances in a variety of
> > > > > > > > countries. In addition, Nicole has been involved in teaching on
> > > > > > > > permaculture design certificate courses in Central America and
> > > > > > > > Europe. Prior to the establishment of The Automatic Earth, Nicole
> > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > Editor of The Oil Drum Canada, where she wrote on peak oil and
> > > > > > > > finance. She also ran the Agri-Energy Producers' Associati
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > of Ontario, where she focused on farm-based biogas projects,
> > > > > > > > grid connections for renewable energy and Feed-In Tariff policy
> > > > > > > > development. While living in the UK she was a Research Fellow at
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Oxford Institute for Energy Studies, where she specialized in
> > > > > > > > nuclear
> > > > > > > > safety in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union, and
> > > > > > > > conducted
> > > > > > > > research into electricity policy at the EU level. She also has
> > > > > > > > significant previous experience practicing as an environmental
> > > > > > > > consultant. Her academic qualifications include a BSc in Biology
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > Carleton University in Canada (where she focused primarily on
> > > > > > > > neuroscience and psychology), a post-graduate diploma in air and
> > > > > > > > water pollution control, the common professional examination in
> > > > > > > > law
> > > > > > > > and an LLM in international law in development from the
> > > > > > > > University of
> > > > > > > > Warwick in the UK. She was granted the University Medal for the
> > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > science graduate in 1988 and the law school prize for the top law
> > > > > > > > school graduate in 1997.
> > > > > > > > > Christopher Nesbitt is the founder and director of Maya Mountain
> > > > > > > > Research Farm. He is a farmer, and a pioneer in tropical
> > > > > > > > agroforestry
> > > > > > > > and permaculture, having lived and studied agriculture in Belize
> > > > > > > > since the mid 1980s. He has been engaged in agroforestry,
> > > > > > > > permaculture, renewable energy through his work on the farm and
> > > > > > > > elsewhere. Christopher worked for Green & Blacks, an organic
> > > > > > > > chocolate company, from 1997 to 2004 on issues related to organic
> > > > > > > > certification, Fairtrade certification and extension. He was a
> > > > > > > > founding member of Belize Organic Producers Association and has
> > > > > > > > worked as a consultant for the Government of Belize?s Ministry of
> > > > > > > > Health, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries Department. He
> > > > > > > > represented
> > > > > > > > Belize in workshops in Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica and
> > > > > > > > Guatemala.
> > > > > > > > He installs photovoltaic and photovoltaic/wind hybrid systems in
> > > > > > > > protected areas, schools, village level photovoltaic water pumps,
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > teaches agroforestry.
> > > > > > > > > A scholarship for this Permaculture Design Course is being
> > > > > > > > > offered
> > > > > > > > by Maya Mountain Research Farm in memory of Anne Bulford. Anne
> > > > > > > > Bulford graduated from Antioch College, was active in organic
> > > > > > > > agriculture in Ohio, working at Ohio Ecological Food and Farming
> > > > > > > > Association, and died in November, 2008 of cancer. She has two
> > > > > > > > boys,
> > > > > > > > Peter and Skyler, who live with Annes mother, Sally. Applicants
> > > > > > > > must
> > > > > > > > be Belizean working in agriculture anywhere in Belize or the
> > > > > > > > communities adjacent to the Maya Mountains in Belize, and a
> > > > > > > > farmer,
> > > > > > > > extension officer or community leader. To apply, please contact
> > > > > > > > Christopher Nesbitt with a description of the work you are doing,
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > a resume or CV and explain why you would like to participate in
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > course.
> > > > > > > > > *Fees for entry into National Parks or Archeological Reserves
> > > > > > > > > must
> > > > > > > > be paid by the students.
> > > > > > > > > _____________________________
> > > > > > > > > Christopher Nesbitt
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Maya Mountain Research Farm
> > > > > > > > > San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> > > > > > > > > PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> > > > > > > > > BELIZE,
> > > > > > > > > Central America
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Country code 501-630-4386
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > www.mmrfbz.org
> > > > > > > > > www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Message: 6
> > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:30:55 -0500
> > > > > > > > > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Michael
> > > > > > > > > Pilarski
> > > > > > > > > <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > > > Message-ID: 
> > > > > > > > > <20140125203055.g34df5xpz448s8wo@webmail.bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> > > > > > > > > Society
> > > > > > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
> > > > > > > > > <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you
> > > > > > > > > completely.?
> > > > > > > > > > I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it
> > > > > > > > > > was a
> > > > > > > > > > bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't
> > > > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > > how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in
> > > > > > > > > > the PC
> > > > > > > > > > ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> > > > > > > > > > dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as
> > > > > > > > > > every
> > > > > > > > > > pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> > > > > > > > > > forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good
> > > > > > > > > > to me
> > > > > > > > > > and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what
> > > > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > > was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
> > > > > > > > > > Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at
> > > > > > > > > > peak
> > > > > > > > > > productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I
> > > > > > > > > > suspect
> > > > > > > > > > the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> > > > > > > > > > Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal
> > > > > > > > > > together.?
> > > > > > > > > > here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> > > > > > > > > > minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Michael Pilarski
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > > > > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > > > > > > > > > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > > > > <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > > > > > > > > > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> > > > > > > > > > visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
> > > > > > > > > > where the "permaculture " was?
> > > > > > > > > > ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with
> > > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > different associates, in various venues. We always teach
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > > > > > > > > > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > encompasses
> > > > > > > > > > all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws
> > > > > > > > > > on many
> > > > > > > > > > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
> > > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
> > > > > > > > > > not how
> > > > > > > > > > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I
> > > > > > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > > clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals
> > > > > > > > > > to live
> > > > > > > > > > a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that
> > > > > > > > > > includes a
> > > > > > > > > > forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a
> > > > > > > > > > mix.
> > > > > > > > > > Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
> > > > > > > > > > different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also
> > > > > > > > > > includes
> > > > > > > > > > time management, succession planning, resource conservation,
> > > > > > > > > > and a
> > > > > > > > > > goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the
> > > > > > > > > > article
> > > > > > > > > > in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with
> > > > > > > > > > an open
> > > > > > > > > > mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The
> > > > > > > > > > experience
> > > > > > > > > > the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by
> > > > > > > > > > decades, and
> > > > > > > > > > comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of
> > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > > > > > Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not
> > > > > > > > > > confuse
> > > > > > > > > > his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such
> > > > > > > > > > presentation by
> > > > > > > > > > Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by
> > > > > > > > > > novices? of
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have
> > > > > > > > > > taught
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not
> > > > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > > mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in
> > > > > > > > > > 1981
> > > > > > > > > > and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He
> > > > > > > > > > wrote
> > > > > > > > > > in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > for me. Work indeed!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > > > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> > > > > > > > > > Society
> > > > > > > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > > > > > > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
> > > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > > > > > > > > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
> > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable
> > > > > > > > > > experience
> > > > > > > > > > in > organic food production... >
> > > > > > > > > > > Its more than clear now that some of the
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mollsionisms" ("The >
> > > > > > > > > > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
> > > > > > > > > > etc.) >
> > > > > > > > > > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
> > > > > > > > > > also >
> > > > > > > > > > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
> > > > > > > > > > PC >
> > > > > > > > > > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
> > > > > > > > > > one >
> > > > > > > > > > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
> > > > > > > > > > since >
> > > > > > > > > > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
> > > > > > > > > > some >
> > > > > > > > > > systems and realize that not everything works as well in
> > > > > > > > > > realiity as
> > > > > > > > > > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
> > > > > > > > > > > definitly
> > > > > > > > > > not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> > > > > > > > > > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
> > > > > > > > > > > prominent
> > > > > > > > > > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in
> > > > > > > > > > > thios
> > > > > > > > > > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
> > > > > > > > > > > courses"),
> > > > > > > > > > and > its only through a few years of practice "on the
> > > > > > > > > > ground", >
> > > > > > > > > > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
> > > > > > > > > > systems,
> > > > > > > > > > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
> > > > > > > > > > > evolve >
> > > > > > > > > > over time in different climates & contexts, that the
> > > > > > > > > > imaginative >
> > > > > > > > > > power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> > > > > > > > > > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Holger
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > > > > escribi?:
> > > > > > > > > > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> > > > > > > > > > > > uninformed
> > > > > > > > > > > > are up to
> > > > > > > > > > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > > > > > > > > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > > > > > > > > > www.tierramor.org
> > > > > > > > > > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > > > > > > > > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > > > > > > > > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > permaculture mailing list
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> > > > > > > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
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> > > > > > > > > > > list maintenance:
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> > > > > > > > > > > message archives:?
> > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://
> > > > > > > > > > > www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems
> > > > > > > > > > > with >
> > > > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> > > > > > > > > > and >
> > > > > > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> > > > > > > > > > toward
> > > > > > > > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > message archives:?
> > > > > > > > > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation
> > > > > > > > > > toward
> > > > > > > > > > list maintenance:
> > > > > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > message archives:
> > > > > > > > > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Message: 7
> > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:22:25 -0800 (PST)
> > > > > > > > > From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > > > > > Message-ID:
> > > > > > > > > <1390706545.88940.YahooMailNeo@web161004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think my main objection to the article is that the author
> > > > > > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > to have interacted with only the most ignorant armchair
> > > > > > > > permaculturists and not looked at the positive. It's not a very
> > > > > > > > balanced article and comes across as a bit of sour grapes to
> > > > > > > > me. ?I
> > > > > > > > do agree that there is dogma in permaculture and there are
> > > > > > > > assumptions being made by some in the movement. I agree we need
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > document our results and am happy that activity is increasing.
> > > > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > I'm not ready to throw out the concept of "lazy gardening" when I
> > > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > such huge yields in the first year with little work from some
> > > > > > > > small
> > > > > > > > plots in my yard, ?by using the old standbys of sheet mulch,
> > > > > > > > hugulkulture, and unfamiliar (but delicious) perennial and
> > > > > > > > tropical
> > > > > > > > vegetables (which are far more suited to my ecosystem than
> > > > > > > > lettuce
> > > > > > > > and tomatoes). As Michael said, the work to yield ratio is very
> > > > > > > > attractive. Is it economically viable? It certainly cut down on
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > fresh food bill, but I'm well aware that what I do in
> > > > > > > > > my yard is not viable for a market garden. Using true cost
> > > > > > > > accounting and measuring inputs vs outputs, I made a very healthy
> > > > > > > > net
> > > > > > > > profit on it for the planet and my own well being however. Am I
> > > > > > > > "wasting good urban farm land?" My yard was Florida sugar sand,
> > > > > > > > til I
> > > > > > > > transformed it with the local organic waste stream. Many urban
> > > > > > > > plots
> > > > > > > > contain depleted and compacted soil not to mention heavy metals
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > chemicals - far from ideal farm land! Am I growing greens and
> > > > > > > > fruit
> > > > > > > > instead of carbs? Guilty as charged, but I eat greens daily. What
> > > > > > > > would be the footprint for me to buy them instead of grow them? I
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > buy rice in bulk once a month. I go to my garden daily for fresh
> > > > > > > > greens. Do I like food forests? Yes, love them (but in an urban
> > > > > > > > area
> > > > > > > > would call them edible forest gardens as a more accurate term).
> > > > > > > > Do I
> > > > > > > > wait years for them to be productive? That has never been my
> > > > > > > > understanding of how to design an urban forest garden, nor
> > > > > > > > would it
> > > > > > > > be the preferred way to do
> > > > > > > > > commercial agroforestry when possible to do otherwise. Do I
> > > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > that market gardening is not "good permaculture?" I'm well
> > > > > > > > aware of
> > > > > > > > how much food my city consumes and where a good chunk of that
> > > > > > > > realistically is going to come from. We need hundreds of market
> > > > > > > > gardens that incorporate permaculture principles. ?I am doing my
> > > > > > > > part
> > > > > > > > to make it easier for market gardeners to be successful.
> > > > > > > > Meanwhile, I
> > > > > > > > garden because I love it and I love the yield from it. It offers
> > > > > > > > balance and a regular connection with the natural world.?
> > > > > > > > > There is a place for both market gardeners and back yard food
> > > > > > > > foresters. We do not have to fight or put each other down. :-) ?
> > > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > is so much good happening amongst new urban permaculturists who
> > > > > > > > haven't gardened much before but nonetheless are turning their
> > > > > > > > lawns
> > > > > > > > into abundant jungles of edibles. What are they doing right? How
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > that be improved upon? ? It's also really exciting to see the
> > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > that Darrell Frey (I enjoyed your book, Darrell) and other market
> > > > > > > > gardeners and small farmers are doing as they combine the
> > > > > > > > principles
> > > > > > > > of permaculture with their already substantial knowledge of
> > > > > > > > farming.?
> > > > > > > > > Sometimes new designers pass judgment on the way I'm doing
> > > > > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > too - I suppose it is human nature to some degree. I just tell
> > > > > > > > them -
> > > > > > > > "I will be very interested in seeing your project in 2-3 years.
> > > > > > > > Be
> > > > > > > > sure to let me know how it goes!" with a friendly grin. :-) ?
> > > > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:31 PM, Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > > <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> > > > > > > > > Society
> > > > > > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
> > > > > > > > > <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you
> > > > > > > > > completely.?
> > > > > > > > > > I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it
> > > > > > > > > > was a
> > > > > > > > > > bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't
> > > > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > > how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in
> > > > > > > > > > the PC
> > > > > > > > > > ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> > > > > > > > > > dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as
> > > > > > > > > > every
> > > > > > > > > > pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> > > > > > > > > > forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good
> > > > > > > > > > to me
> > > > > > > > > > and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what
> > > > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > > was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
> > > > > > > > > > Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at
> > > > > > > > > > peak
> > > > > > > > > > productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I
> > > > > > > > > > suspect
> > > > > > > > > > the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> > > > > > > > > > Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal
> > > > > > > > > > together.?
> > > > > > > > > > here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> > > > > > > > > > minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Michael Pilarski
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > > > > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > > > > > > > > > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > > > > <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > ? I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the
> > > > > > > > > > article
> > > > > > > > > > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> > > > > > > > > > visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
> > > > > > > > > > where the "permaculture " was?
> > > > > > > > > > ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with
> > > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > different associates, in various venues. We always teach
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > > > > > > > > > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > encompasses
> > > > > > > > > > all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws
> > > > > > > > > > on many
> > > > > > > > > > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with
> > > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is
> > > > > > > > > > not how
> > > > > > > > > > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I
> > > > > > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > > clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals
> > > > > > > > > > to live
> > > > > > > > > > a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that
> > > > > > > > > > includes a
> > > > > > > > > > forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a
> > > > > > > > > > mix.
> > > > > > > > > > Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
> > > > > > > > > > different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also
> > > > > > > > > > includes
> > > > > > > > > > time management, succession planning, resource conservation,
> > > > > > > > > > and a
> > > > > > > > > > goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the
> > > > > > > > > > article
> > > > > > > > > > in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with
> > > > > > > > > > an open
> > > > > > > > > > mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The
> > > > > > > > > > experience
> > > > > > > > > > the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by
> > > > > > > > > > decades, and
> > > > > > > > > > comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of
> > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > > > > > Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not
> > > > > > > > > > confuse
> > > > > > > > > > his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such
> > > > > > > > > > presentation by
> > > > > > > > > > Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by
> > > > > > > > > > novices? of
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have
> > > > > > > > > > taught
> > > > > > > > > > permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not
> > > > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > > mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in
> > > > > > > > > > 1981
> > > > > > > > > > and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He
> > > > > > > > > > wrote
> > > > > > > > > > in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > for me. Work indeed!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > > > > > > > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > > > > > > > > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > > www.bioshelter.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New
> > > > > > > > > > Society
> > > > > > > > > > Publishing, 2011
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > > > > > > > > > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is
> > > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > > > > > > > > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though
> > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable
> > > > > > > > > > experience
> > > > > > > > > > in > organic food production... >
> > > > > > > > > > > Its more than clear now that some of the
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mollsionisms" ("The >
> > > > > > > > > > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/
> > > > > > > > > > etc.) >
> > > > > > > > > > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but
> > > > > > > > > > also >
> > > > > > > > > > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic
> > > > > > > > > > PC >
> > > > > > > > > > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been
> > > > > > > > > > one >
> > > > > > > > > > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that,
> > > > > > > > > > since >
> > > > > > > > > > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish
> > > > > > > > > > some >
> > > > > > > > > > systems and realize that not everything works as well in
> > > > > > > > > > realiity as
> > > > > > > > > > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but
> > > > > > > > > > > definitly
> > > > > > > > > > not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> > > > > > > > > > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one
> > > > > > > > > > > prominent
> > > > > > > > > > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in
> > > > > > > > > > > thios
> > > > > > > > > > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad
> > > > > > > > > > > courses"),
> > > > > > > > > > and > its only through a few years of practice "on the
> > > > > > > > > > ground", >
> > > > > > > > > > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing
> > > > > > > > > > systems,
> > > > > > > > > > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and
> > > > > > > > > > > evolve >
> > > > > > > > > > over time in different climates & contexts, that the
> > > > > > > > > > imaginative >
> > > > > > > > > > power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> > > > > > > > > > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Holger
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > > > > > > escribi?:
> > > > > > > > > > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > > > > > > > > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
> > > > > > > > > > > > uninformed
> > > > > > > > > > > > are up to
> > > > > > > > > > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > > > > > > > > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > > > > > > > > > www.tierramor.org
> > > > > > > > > > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > > > > > > > > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > > > > > > > > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://
> > > > > > > > > > > www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems
> > > > > > > > > > > with >
> > > > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> > > > > > > > > > and >
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> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
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> > > > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> > > > > > > > > > and
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> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration
> > > > > > > > > > and
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> > > > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > > > > > > > Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > Google message archive search:
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> > > > > > > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > > > > > > > Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > > > > End of permaculture Digest, Vol 132, Issue 26
> > > > > > > > > *********************************************
> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> > > > > > > > landtech
> > > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > > > > > Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > > integrated
> > > > > > > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > > > > > > nature-compatible human habitat
> > > > > >
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> > > > > > http://www.ipermie.net
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> > > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > > > > > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > > > > > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
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> > > > > Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
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> > > > Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
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> > > > nature-compatible human habitat
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> > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
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> >
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> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
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> > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > nature-compatible human habitat
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> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
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> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
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> nature-compatible human habitat 


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