permaculture

[Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>]

phone # 406-741-5809. mountain time. Montana


 
Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski



________________________________
 From: Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
To: 'permaculture' <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Making great compost
 

Michael,

I need to talk to you would you send me your phone number??


Thanks,
Scott

"To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller
-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Pilarski
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:10 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Making great compost

Another perspective. Kudos to Elaine Ingham and everyone else's perspective.



What’s all this talk about perfect, by-the-book, compost
making? I am all for high-quality compost and it is a great zone 1 and 2
input,
but many permaculture sites and most of nature doesn’t make perfect compost
piles. 
 
My overall goal is to keep increasing carbon storage on site
with as many sizes of organic material as I can get.  I bring in stumps,
logs, limbs, branches, litter and chipped
woody debris. It all gets digested eventually. I am providing digestion
material for a wide range of organisms, the larger the woody debris range is
-  the large the diversity of
decomposers.  At this point I have
the luxury of bringing in some outside inputs to my semi-arid sites, but I
mostly rely on the bootstrap strategy. My first year garden on a weedy or
grassy site produces a certain amount of garden waste, weed’s bodies, etc to
do
some effective sheet mulching on perhaps only 5% of the site.  In year two
it might get up to 10% as
the herbaceous perennials put on weight.  In years 3 thru 10 there is an
increasing amount of woody biomass
generated. Thinnings and prunings as well as herbaceous material and weeds
can
now cover most of the site. In a sense, you could say that the goal is to
reach
100% soil surface coverage organic matter in as few years as possible.  My
recent zone 5 sites have been
achieving this by year 5. A subtropical rainforest site might achieve this
in
the first 2-3 years. I like to use all sizes of organic matter to make
hugelkulturs using inputs and materials generated on site over time, but
they
are only a small part of a site in the early years. 
 
All this biomass that is hitting the ground is composted in
the loose sense of the word. Decomposed is a better word. The amount of
biomass
in my overall system that I put through a perfect, by-the-book, turned
compost
pile is small. Most of it ends up in cold compost piles, rough compost
piles,
brush piles, deep mulches, light mulches, woody debris here and there, live
plant matter, etc. 
 
Compost doesn’t have to be perfect to be good. Kinda like
people. We can always use more perfect people as well as more perfect
compost
piles, but lets face it, we have to deal all the time with less-than-perfect
people and less-than-perfect compost piles. 
 
Michael Pilarski
 

________________________________
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Making great compost


Elaine Ingham's lab that used to be at soilfoodweb.com does analysis of
microbial content of compost samples. They aren't cheap. I think these folks
http://earthfort.com/lab-services.html
are an offshoot of her lab. They're in the same town, at any rate.

Elaine also has written that the benefits of hot composting are these: it
kills weed and other seeds that can remain for years in a mouldering (slow)
pile. The thermophiles are a stage in the successionary process that
prepares conditions for the later-stage microbes that are the true
inhabitants of mature compost, the ones that release nutrients--as opposed
the the early stage microbes that mostly chew stuff into small pieces but
don't release much in the way of nutrients. The microbes that get killed in
a hot pile are early succession critters that don't release nutrients from
the pile at any great rate. They are chewers rather than chemists, busting
up pieces so that the later-stage microbes have lots of edge to colonize.

Those later stage microbes will show up in a slow pile when the raw
materials have broken down completely, but that can take years--the same
pace as natural soil development, as opposed to the accelerated succession
in a hot pile. So a cold pile will not develop the appropriate mix of
microbes to release nutrients anywhere near as fast as a hot pile. Various
sources say 12-18 months. By then the pile has sat out in the rain and sun
and may have leached out and off-gassed lots of nutrients.

Cold piles also tend to accumulate flies and maggots, something I don't see
in hot piles. And rats and such will get into cold piles, but the goodies
they like to eat are quickly broken down in a hot pile. And pathogens and
cysts aren't killed at all in a cold pile. They are paradises for fungal
diseases.

That said, I still do cold composting with much of my organic debris because
I have other things to do besides baby-sit compost piles.

A table of cold vs hot pile benefits is at
http://hotbincomposting.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/hotbin-hot-and-cold-tabl
e-one-page1.jpg

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Nov 14, 2013, at 4:33 PM, Bob Waldrop wrote:

> This charcoal thread was very interesting.  Toby's comments --
>> Because Elaine says that most compost is garbage, so if we are going 
>> to hold the biochar folks to the high standard of carefully controlled 
>> temperature and oxygen levels of pyrolysis in technical equipment, I 
>> don't think its right to talk about compost as something that just 
>> makes itself. To quote Elaine, from what Lawrence posted on Nov 2:
>>> a sign on a pile of organic matter
>>> that says "compost", does not in fact make it compost.
>>> 
>>> If the material is 70% cocoa color, rich earthy, old-growth forest
>>> smell, wide diameter, colored filamentous fungi present, good numbers of
>>> flagellates and amoebae (aerobic protozoa) and beneficial
>>> nematodes present, then it can be called compost.
>> 
> were food for thought for me.  I generally do the long and slow compost 
> methods, I rarely turn my compost and it usually sits around for a year 
> or a little less and it smells like what I imagine a "rich earthy, 
> old-growth forest" would smell like, and it is dark brown in color. I'm 
> also doing more composting in place.  But now I want to get it tested, 
> lol, and I wonder "who does that kind of testing?" This is something 
> more I think than taking it in to the county extension office and asking 
> for a soil test on it.
> 
> AND. . .
> 
> what are some "good compost best practices?"  Toby said something about 
> the compost had to get hot to get the right mix of micro flora/fauna, 
> but then somebody else replied that he thought getting compost hot burns 
> out the micro flora.   Does a forest floor ever actually get "hot" the 
> way we think of a compost pile?
> 
> Bob Waldrop, Oklahoma City
> http://www.ipermie.net  Permaculture your urban lifestyle & protect
yourself from the four horsemen of the modern apocalypse: peak oil, climate
instability, economic irrationality, and political criminality
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net 
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared



_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net 
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net 
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net 
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>From toby@patternliteracy.com  Fri Nov 15 15:20:14 2013
Return-Path: <toby@patternliteracy.com>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 20217)
        id 57EF1E9798; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 15:20:14 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on 
mailman1.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE,
        RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.195])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24259E9734
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Fri, 15 Nov 2013 15:20:09 -0500 (EST)
Received: from [172.16.42.5] (c-76-102-58-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net
        [76.102.58.203])
        by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus1) with ESMTP (Nemesis)
        id 0MgME2-1W1rCC26sw-00NFM8; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 15:20:07 -0500
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:20:04 -0800
In-Reply-To: <1384484978.51167.YahooMailNeo@web142302.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
References: 
<2488829EDD864FEAB5DA46B0EB752819@Targadc5fefe82d><98B3614D-6893-4295-87F4-5C398455E049@patternliteracy.com><F7AE398979AF4E9DAD8E8C78C6699AB6@Targadc5fefe82d>
      <18154788-CF69-4BB5-870A-2FB202DDE005@patternliteracy.com>      
<2313D14D258C49648137FBCF084B811D@Targadc5fefe82d>      
<0F3136D3-A39B-4AC3-9601-357B9BA6CE66@patternliteracy.com>      
<52856BC6.3000902@bobwaldrop.net>
        <B1E232CD-1C79-4555-A452-3BBA2DF2F13C@patternliteracy.com>
        <1384484978.51167.YahooMailNeo@web142302.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-Id: <45D212FB-5334-43C9-AB85-C69FF85A0D60@patternliteracy.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283)
X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:AT02ZpOO0MWr+4gaV14bT+87tHJOojoyFriBR1axVdF
        Ps4+1VkDjvnzAttJlPi5T139X7c0sYwXPYxz0+ZzBzpHlPSf+L
        4MeT+YngpSjKF+seAQ6jZ51v4QaNEkM26m8L7rxXJYqFThPyLa
        6WaVH4lZQ5GLEqTr8COCpEMSG3OGIJDUi6NuVI3ekxP9F6Z+ok
        6Ee4EcXLHnNlMXKy3i0z0O7lvkJhqcBaOi4e4ZwYoLXcKY3STR
        8scRpVSjI9uBfpNpTY4iJlSv3aHftg0OLI41Ub5YR1r+3GaxVf
        TIuh3r2owqVP3sFg9SdS0eI8pgZSN85UaJBMEsr+YmGG85K7zu
        87ka/Uhe/59oMMDkxLfFSXSRpKLedGgAWDvzw2z6n9elUjdB+Y
        9JTPxVDxmmHeery/zwLGpV6UUc08xxHLioContent-Type: text/plain;
        charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Making great compost
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 20:20:14 -0000

On Nov 14, 2013, at 7:09 PM, Michael Pilarski wrote:

> What�s all this talk about perfect, by-the-book, compost
> making? I am all for high-quality compost and it is a great zone 1 and 2 
> input,
> but many permaculture sites and most of nature doesn�t make perfect compost
> piles. 

Absolutely, Skeeter. I use the zone system to figure out how much effort to 
put into creating compost and other organic matter. I have one large zone-one 
bed that gets precious worm compost and, when I feel like making it, the best 
compost I can prepare.  Zone one gets heavy production and harvest, so it 
needs lots of nutrients and OM.

A little of this high-quality compost also goes into my zone two beds, which 
are not as intensively planted and harvested. Those also get supplemented 
with composted manure from nearby ranches and the spent soil from some local 
places that, um, grow Northern California's medicinal herb crop. We get 1 or 
2 cubic yards of spent soil from them every month, delivered. That stuff is 
very light, and needs lots of mineral supplements for the first year or two 
until it rots down into soil, but, boy, do veggies grow fast in it when you 
add compost, manure, and minerals. With those quantities I am raising the 
soil level over about an acre of forest garden via terraces.

I also have, in far zone 2, a big pile of leafy debris collected from the 
acre and a half inside our deer fence. That's a cold pile; I water it now and 
then in the dry season to keep it moldering, and spread the result around the 
forest garden, which is outer zone 2 and inner zone 3. 

Outside the deer fence there are some fruit trees in zone 3 and 4, and I lay 
logs on contour below these and pile random trimmings and brush there, and 
put other mulch into the swales that we have everywhere. Downed branches from 
the forest (5 acres or so) I periodically move so they are on contour, and 
these catch debris behind them.

The land is on a north-facing slope with the garden and forest garden at the 
top. The forest garden is 30 years old (an apprentice of Luther Burbank 
planted some of the trees when he was an old man) and has had organic matter 
added to it by the ton for all those years, so now there is about two feet of 
good soil on top of the shaley native silt. What seems to be happening is 
that the juices from this acre or more of amended soil are seeping downslope 
into the forest, because the plants and soil within 100 feet of the garden, 
downslope, are in much better shape than the forest farther down. So we have 
a fertility generator at the top of a hill.

I can't take credit for all the prep that was done here before I got here two 
years ago. The owner and her helpers have done much of it, and Keith Johnson 
did some work here in the early nineties, plus Erik Ohlsen, a brilliant local 
designer, lived here 14 years ago, so I am just the most recent in a line of 
caretakers.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com