permaculture

[Steve Hart <stevehart@raglan.co.nz>]

May we continue this debate, discussion and argument going. It may irritate 
many, it may piss a lot of people off, many may want to stick their head in 
the sand...then when you do, that what is left exposed ? This debate  is 
valuable and does have very serious consequences.

I personally do recognise the tremendous value that Convergences and 
Conferences bring, Internationally, nationally and regionally. It is also IMO 
a valuable plank in the whole social dynamic of Permaculture. Many try to 
ignore the "Politics" of any society. But when you stick you head in the sand 
what happens. I prefer to keep my eyes wide open, my ears wide open and work 
on positive advancement. Sometimes this advancement requires a bit of back 
pedalling, we often need to take one step back to then be able to take two 
steps forward. We often make mistakes and then find we need to correct them.  
We often need to say sorry I made a mistake I apologise, how can this be 
corrected. Sometimes downward spirals just get deeper and darker with serious 
consequence when it then becomes a need for others to step in to help. 

My desire has always been to offer energy into keeping the global 
Permaculture family united, together and connected. Some may argue this, and 
that is everyones right. Vehicles like this List go a long way to doing this, 
as do IPCs and National and Pan National and regional Convergences.

I thank Scott, Lawrence and Griffen for you inputs...may there be many more. 
My opinions are mine, I own them. But I do, like to share them too to 
stimulate my expansion of the intellectual rigour on that chosen subject. 
This is definetly one subject i would like to see wider and more intensive 
debate on. 

As a respected elder within the international network I invited Declan 
Kennedy to make contact his view point is quote:

> "Dear Steve
> I am not interested in these feuds on definition nor in any attempts to 
> split hairs. 
> 'Vive las difference!' as the French say.
> I am interested in keeping out of this process as I feel that it is 
> difficult enough to get a PC conference and convergence going.
> Please, consider letting those in Jordan with the help of Nadia and Geoff 
> do their job and try to support them even if you disagree on details. 
> I am not intending to join in the discussion nor do I want to put any 
> spanners in the works.
> 
> Please, leave me out of the CC-ing
> Thanks from a still practicing permaculturist at the age of 76"

Personally I do not see this energy as a feud I do see it as a valuable and 
good debate...Griffen's reaction will appear as will many other viewpoints 
and reactions, but this is better than none at all. If he wants to spit the 
dummy that is his choice and way of communicating. Its a pity that doors need 
to be slammed shut rather than left open, so we can see our way don the 
corridor, which at times is often dark, and at times there is light at the 
end. The debate needs to be opened up....the resolve out the end will be a 
good one if we can keep all communication lines open and active. Sorry 
Lawrenece I can not see how splitting will have the benefit of global PC 
unity. But, I'm open for enlightenment. 

Sorry I haven't yet got an active website to share with you all who I am, 
what I do, what my history is and what my pathway is or to even verbose on my 
achievements...sometime soon after I realise there is only 26 hours in the 
day.

More please...Steve Hart



On 28/05/2010, at 2:53 PM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

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> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Comfrey-goat trial (jamesdavid Sneed)
>   2. Re: More robust plant growth around termite mounds.
>      (Crystal Powers)
>   3. Re: More robust plant growth around termite mounds.
>      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   4. Re: More robust plant growth around termite mounds.
>      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   5. What weeds or cover crops are high in nitrogen, i.e. suitable
>      for harvesting to make High N liquid fertilizer?
>      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   6. Re: What weeds or cover crops are high in nitrogen,      i.e.
>      suitable for harvesting to make High N liquid fertilizer?
>      (Cory Brennan)
>   7. IPC 9 and 10 (Scott Pittman)
>   8. Re: IPC 9 and 10 (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   9. Re: IPC 9 and 10 (grifenhope@gmail.com)
>  10. Re: What weeds or cover crops are high in nitrogen,      i.e.
>      suitable for harvesting to make High N liquid fertilizer?
>      (Michael Pilarski)
>  11. Fruiting of dwarf Meyer lemon and fertilizer for it      (what
>      type?). (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>  12. Re: What weeds or cover crops are high in nitrogen, i.e.
>      suitable for harvesting to make High N liquid fertilizer?
>      (Keith D Johnson)
>  13. Re: Paul Stamets on the Oil Spill (Cory Brennan)
>  14. Re: IPC 9 and 10 (Keith D Johnson)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 11:52:40 -0700
> From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Comfrey-goat trial
> To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <SNT131-w24E4C751082F49EF511A4CB2EA0@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> 
> We've been conducting a similar trial, with increasing amounts in their 
> nighttime feed rack. with no odd results. They graze feely about 18 to 20 
> hours daily, so have a wide variety of things available to them.
> 
>> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 08:01:06 -0700
>> From: slowfoodguy@yahoo.com
>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: [permaculture] Comfrey-goat trial
>> 
>> There was a question regarding the use of comfrey as a fraction of a 
>> goat's diet, from James David Sneed I believe, that I'm interested in 
>> answering.  Partly because I have a lot of comfrey growing in my garden, 
>> and also because I have a meat goat on a small urban farm that I'd like to 
>> feed exclusively onsite.  This morning I started my trial, with one large 
>> comfrey leaf, and she ate it preferentially to carrot, green beans, snow 
>> peas, and leaf lettuce.  As with any new forage, and permaculture in 
>> general, I want to go slowly with this one.  I think I'm being overly 
>> cautious, but that always seems to pay off.
>> 
>> So what I'm hoping for is a few other people, especially from other 
>> climates and soil types (I live in muggy zone 8 with loamy sand), and with 
>> other breeds of goats (I have a Kiko), to join the trial.  Of course, if 
>> you live in a muggy zone 8 climate with loamy sand and a Kiko I'd be glad 
>> for the redundancy!  We could arrange the trial metrics as a group and 
>> report back here with our findings.
>> 
>> Anyone interested?
>> Tripp
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
>> -Chinese proverb
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
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>> And: http://www.richsoil.com
>                                         
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 15:46:53 -0500
> From: Crystal Powers <crystalannpowers@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] More robust plant growth around termite
>       mounds.
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <AANLkTiljA7hB6uxfRDbutJVeq93feyjbAVX8b2KVd3jp@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> I have noticed a similar occurance with the large ant hills (~1' tall by
> 1-2' wide) that are in my new pasture.  We are in Zone 5 in East Central
> Nebraska, USA.  We just moved in late last fall, and I noticed all these big
> mounds, probably a least a 100 of them out in my pasture, it wasn't until
> this spring when I saw the ants at work that I figured out what they were.
> Haven't looked up what kind of ant yet: black, 1/2" long, not aggressive.
> 
> The grass grows extra thick on top and around these mounds and I figure it
> is similar to what is being seen in the termite mounds.
> ~Crystal
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 17:57:13 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] More robust plant growth around termite
>       mounds.
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4BFEEAB9.6030009@bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Crystal Powers wrote:
>> I have noticed a similar occurance with the large ant hills (~1' tall by
>> 1-2' wide) that are in my new pasture.  We are in Zone 5 in East Central
>> Nebraska, USA.  We just moved in late last fall, and I noticed all these 
>> big
>> mounds, probably a least a 100 of them out in my pasture, it wasn't until
>> this spring when I saw the ants at work that I figured out what they were.
>> Haven't looked up what kind of ant yet: black, 1/2" long, not aggressive.
>> 
>> The grass grows extra thick on top and around these mounds and I figure it
>> is similar to what is being seen in the termite mounds.
>> ~Crystal
> 
> Good to know. Those ants may be fire ants. I'll keep an eye on mine as 
> they build new mounds around my fields.
> So, fire ants are a mixed blessing but can be a problem in the yard.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 20:08:45 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] More robust plant growth around termite
>       mounds.
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4BFF098D.3060807@bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> 
> Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
>> Soil fertility and climate change: An issue pack / Radio Scripts / Farm 
>> Radio International
>> http://www.farmradio.org/english/radio-scripts/89-2script_en.asp
>> 
>> Two more success stories
>> 
>> The Gacheru Self-Help Group, a farmers? group in central Kenya, has 
>> benefited by using a fertilizer made from local weeds. According to the 
>> farmers, the organic fertilizer solution works well and is far cheaper 
>> than inorganic fertilizers. The process for making the solution was 
>> developed by the Kenya Agricultural Research Institute and involves 
>> extracting juice from two local weeds, Desmodium and Tithonia. These 
>> weeds are high in nitrogen, which boosts crop yields, says farm manager 
>> Samuel Mugo. "They fight all manner of destructive weeds and give us 
>> high yields from our farms." The process is simple. The farmers thresh 
>> the weeds, then mix them with water in a drum. The solution is then 
>> ready to use.
> 
> #
> Fermented Plant Extract - EM America, Effective Microorganisms
> The strained liquid is the Fermented Plant Extract (EMFPE). The EMFPE is 
> used as a foliar spray. Dilute this solution 1:500 (1.5 tsp. per gallon) 
> and spray ...
> www.ematlantic.ca/.../em1-fermented-plant-extract/index.htm - Cached - 
> Similar
> #
> Method For Fermentation And Cultivation, Fermented Plant Extract ...
> Jul 26, 2007 ... For the purpose of providing a method of safely and 
> inexpensively producing a fermented plant extract containing an 
> immunopotentiator at a ...
> www.freshpatents.com/Method-for-fermentation-and-cultivation-fermented-plant-extract-fermented-plant-extract-powder-and-compositi...
>  
> - Cached - Similar
> # [PDF]
> 1 Gardening Activity: Making Fermented Plant Juice Objective: To ...
> File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
> or stored fermented plant juice in a cool, dry location that's out of 
> direct sunlight. ? For practice, extract the fermented plant juice from 
> the bottom ...
> www.uhdp.org/.../Gardening%20Activity%20-%20Fermented%20Plant%20Juice.pdf 
> - Similar
> #
> Getting Maniacal with Organics: Fermented Plant Extracts and Plant ...
> 15 posts - 11 authors - Last post: May 5
> Getting Maniacal with Organics: Fermented Plant Extracts and Plant Meals 
> ... He had been working with plant extracts as a deer repellant. ...
> www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=171805 - Cached
> Get more discussion results
> #
> Method for Fermentation and Culture, Fermented Plant Extract ...
> 5: A fermented plant extract composition containing the fermented plant 
> extract according to claim 2 wherein said fermented plant extract 
> composition is ...
> www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090162344 - Cached - Similar
> #
> Fermented Plant Extracts and making your own nutrient line
> Mar 27, 2010 ... hello everyone, i'm an active organic gardener and hate 
> paying for nutrients unless their RAW INGREDIENTS. i think this is what 
> makes ...
> www.thcfarmer.com/.../fermented-plant-extracts-making-your-own-nutrient-line-18772/
>  
> - Cached
> #
> How to make EM-FPE
> How to make EM-FPE (Fermented Plant Extract). For centuries extracts 
> have been used as elixirs for all sorts of ailments. Individuals would 
> seek out certain ...
> www.emshop.co.nz/fermentation.../how-to-make-em-fpe - Cached - Similar
> #
> Probiotics - Fermented Plant Extracts
> ME fermented plant extract (FPE) is prepared by using fresh plants/weeds 
> and ME Probiotics. EM-FPE includes organic acids, bioactive substances, ...
> www.microbialearth.com/.../index.php?...fermented-plant-extracts... - Cached
> # [PDF]
> EM Fermented Plant Extract and EM5 for Controlling Pickleworm ...
> File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
> by MT Wood - Cited by 1 - Related articles
> applications of EM fermented plant extract in combination with EM5. The 
> potential use of EM for pest management while enhancing yields in 
> cucumber is ...
> dg.cs.washington.edu/.../Q/T/8/.../Pickleworm%20in%20Cucumber.pdf
> #
> EM?-Agriculture: Experimenting with EM FPE, Fermented Plant Extract
> Now, back to the fermented plant extracts.... If we look back at foods, 
> think of all the extracts (mostly herbal) on the market. Most, if not 
> all, ...
> effective-microorganisms.blogspot.com/.../experimenting-with-em-fpe-fermented.html
>  
> - Cached
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 20:37:10 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: [permaculture] What weeds or cover crops are high in
>       nitrogen, i.e. suitable for harvesting to make High N liquid
>       fertilizer?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4BFF1036.7050503@bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> 
> What weeds or cover crops are high in nitrogen, i.e. suitable for 
> harvesting to make High N liquid fertilizer?
> 
> Are there any weeds, natives, annual or perennial or woody that stand 
> out as far as nitrogen content is concerned?
> 
> Good to know so as to conserve patches of weeds that might otherwise get 
> cut of eliminated; best to incorporate them as an element in a 
> permaculture design or comprehensive plan for a property.
> 
> At my place I have an abundance of wild turnip greens/mustard, rye 
> grass, curly dock. These predominate as I have systematically gotten rid 
> of most of the Pennsylvania Smartweed, Bermuda, crabgrass, Johnson 
> grass, redroot pigweed and some of the lambs quarters. Maybe the LQ is a 
> candidate for a high N crop. Outside the garden areas I have a bumper 
> crop of red, white andtall sweet clovers, ryegrass, fescue and many 
> other desirable plants, all thanks to the abundant rain we have has 
> since winter, especially near the beginning of Spring.
> 
> I have domestic bees also, wild ones, probably from hives I had years 
> ago and swarmed or someone else's hives.
> 
> Thanks for any feedback.
> 
> ...:LL
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 18:13:07 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] What weeds or cover crops are high in
>       nitrogen,       i.e. suitable for harvesting to make High N liquid
>       fertilizer?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <17581.79704.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> The clovers are nitrogen fixers but don't forget dynamic accumulators. Get 
> great results with comfrey tea, and nettle and lambsquarters, etc. Many 
> weeds are dynamic accumulators of nutrients which only makes sense in a 
> pioneer species.
> 
> C
> 
> --- On Thu, 5/27/10, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> 
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
>> Subject: [permaculture] What weeds or cover crops are high in nitrogen, 
>> i.e. suitable for harvesting to make High N liquid fertilizer?
>> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Date: Thursday, May 27, 2010, 5:37 PM
>> 
>> What weeds or cover crops are high in nitrogen, i.e.
>> suitable for 
>> harvesting to make High N liquid fertilizer?
>> 
>> Are there any weeds, natives, annual or perennial or woody
>> that stand 
>> out as far as nitrogen content is concerned?
>> 
>> Good to know so as to conserve patches of weeds that might
>> otherwise get 
>> cut of eliminated; best to incorporate them as an element
>> in a 
>> permaculture design or comprehensive plan for a property.
>> 
>> At my place I have an abundance of wild turnip
>> greens/mustard, rye 
>> grass, curly dock. These predominate as I have
>> systematically gotten rid 
>> of most of the Pennsylvania Smartweed, Bermuda, crabgrass,
>> Johnson 
>> grass, redroot pigweed and some of the lambs quarters.
>> Maybe the LQ is a 
>> candidate for a high N crop. Outside the garden areas I
>> have a bumper 
>> crop of red, white andtall sweet clovers, ryegrass, fescue
>> and many 
>> other desirable plants, all thanks to the abundant rain we
>> have has 
>> since winter, especially near the beginning of Spring.
>> 
>> I have domestic bees also, wild ones, probably from hives I
>> had years 
>> ago and swarmed or someone else's hives.
>> 
>> Thanks for any feedback.
>> 
>> ...:LL
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>> searchstring
>> More information:
>> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
>> permaculture forums? http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums 
>> And: http://www.richsoil.com
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 20:00:46 -0600
> From: "Scott Pittman" <scott@permaculture.org>
> Subject: [permaculture] IPC 9 and 10
> To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <7F87407D6BB946E1BAC6777FA005534A@ScottPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> Hi Wes,
> 
> I have heard some very disturbing news about the convergence in Africa and
> am writing you for clarification.  Basically it is being reported that Geoff
> Lawton and Ali Sharif bullied people into dropping Cuba (as we had agreed on
> in Brazil) in favor of Jordan.
> 
> I am very disturbed about this treatment by our international body toward
> Cuba.  To my mind they have far more to offer IPC10 than does Jordan, which
> as far as I can tell has one project done by Geoff Lawton to demonstrate.  I
> am not interested in participating in his aggrandizement, particularly to
> the detriment of Cuba.
> 
> I would appreciate your take on what took place and the email addresses of
> anyone who participated in the selection so I can also solicit their views.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Scott Pittman
> Director
> Permaculture Institute
> www.permaculture.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 23:54:51 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] IPC 9 and 10
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4BFF3E8B.10300@bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Scott Pittman wrote:
>> Hi Wes,
>> 
>> I have heard some very disturbing news about the convergence in Africa and
>> am writing you for clarification.  Basically it is being reported that 
>> Geoff
>> Lawton and Ali Sharif bullied people into dropping Cuba (as we had agreed 
>> on
>> in Brazil) in favor of Jordan.
>> 
>> I am very disturbed about this treatment by our international body toward
>> Cuba.  To my mind they have far more to offer IPC10 than does Jordan, which
>> as far as I can tell has one project done by Geoff Lawton to demonstrate.  
>> I
>> am not interested in participating in his aggrandizement, particularly to
>> the detriment of Cuba.
>> 
>> I would appreciate your take on what took place and the email addresses of
>> anyone who participated in the selection so I can also solicit their views.
> 
> I am not in the loop but would like to back all that Scott has said, to 
> the letter. With all that Cuba has to offer, rich proving ground for 
> work in the permaculture arena that it is, it is amazing to me that, 
> when political protocol will allow a PC convergence in Cuba, that the so 
> called "power elite" of this important movement turns down such a 
> remarkable opportunity. Did you know that Cuba has one of the most 
> robust, old and diverse ecological zones in the entire world, if not the 
> most diverse? That is unique and beautiful, a rare thing. I have seen a 
> TV documentary on it, on PBS. I'll bet the Cubans would arrange a side 
> trip to this zone for the PC convergence attendees. Also, politically, 
> it would be timely and productive for an international event like this 
> to happen there, very important, in my view, an opportunity, maybe rare, 
> not to be missed.
> 
> People in positions of authority with the power to create worthwhile 
> happenings for permaculture folks all over the world should know better 
> than to trade Cuba for Jordan for the convergence.
> 
> Also, for Americans, this would be an especially valuable opportunity to
> see and be seen in Cuba, to promote Permaculture, better relations with 
> the USA and to carry home valuable lessons and experiences to tell the 
> rest of the country about, important as there is a vast and growing 
> movement happening in my country, as there is all over the world.
> 
> Thank all the positive forces at work in out universe for this forum and 
> for everyone who has made it the useful resource that is is and will 
> continue to be.
> 
> How about two convergences or a split in the international governing 
> body with each group going its own way and everyone else having a choice 
> of two events each year?
> 
> The message is not to bully people but we can sure as hell vote with our 
> feet.
> 
> Lawrence London
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 04:04:07 +0000
> From: grifenhope@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] IPC 9 and 10
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       
> <113652941-1275019453-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-324059829-@bda001.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
>       
> Content-Type: text/plain
> 
> What a load of bollocks. Im out. 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 23:54:51 
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] IPC 9 and 10
> 
> Scott Pittman wrote:
>> Hi Wes,
>> 
>> I have heard some very disturbing news about the convergence in Africa and
>> am writing you for clarification.  Basically it is being reported that 
>> Geoff
>> Lawton and Ali Sharif bullied people into dropping Cuba (as we had agreed 
>> on
>> in Brazil) in favor of Jordan.
>> 
>> I am very disturbed about this treatment by our international body toward
>> Cuba.  To my mind they have far more to offer IPC10 than does Jordan, which
>> as far as I can tell has one project done by Geoff Lawton to demonstrate.  
>> I
>> am not interested in participating in his aggrandizement, particularly to
>> the detriment of Cuba.
>> 
>> I would appreciate your take on what took place and the email addresses of
>> anyone who participated in the selection so I can also solicit their views.
> 
> I am not in the loop but would like to back all that Scott has said, to 
> the letter. With all that Cuba has to offer, rich proving ground for 
> work in the permaculture arena that it is, it is amazing to me that, 
> when political protocol will allow a PC convergence in Cuba, that the so 
> called "power elite" of this important movement turns down such a 
> remarkable opportunity. Did you know that Cuba has one of the most 
> robust, old and diverse ecological zones in the entire world, if not the 
> most diverse? That is unique and beautiful, a rare thing. I have seen a 
> TV documentary on it, on PBS. I'll bet the Cubans would arrange a side 
> trip to this zone for the PC convergence attendees. Also, politically, 
> it would be timely and productive for an international event like this 
> to happen there, very important, in my view, an opportunity, maybe rare, 
> not to be missed.
> 
> People in positions of authority with the power to create worthwhile 
> happenings for permaculture folks all over the world should know better 
> than to trade Cuba for Jordan for the convergence.
> 
> Also, for Americans, this would be an especially valuable opportunity to
> see and be seen in Cuba, to promote Permaculture, better relations with 
> the USA and to carry home valuable lessons and experiences to tell the 
> rest of the country about, important as there is a vast and growing 
> movement happening in my country, as there is all over the world.
> 
> Thank all the positive forces at work in out universe for this forum and 
> for everyone who has made it the useful resource that is is and will 
> continue to be.
> 
> How about two convergences or a split in the international governing 
> body with each group going its own way and everyone else having a choice 
> of two events each year?
> 
> The message is not to bully people but we can sure as hell vote with our 
> feet.
> 
> Lawrence London
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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> And: http://www.richsoil.com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:17:37 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] What weeds or cover crops are high in
>       nitrogen,       i.e. suitable for harvesting to make High N liquid
>       fertilizer?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <111787.33576.qm@web120015.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> The traditionally best known plants for making liquid fertilizer include 
> nettles, thistles, and comfrey. 
> 
> We can likely assume that nitrogen-fixers like the clovers will be 
> especially high in N. 
> 
> One place to look for information is the biodynamic use of teas.? I like 
> adding any of the plants they use in BD preps which include nettles, 
> yarrow, chamomile, valerian, dandelion, horsetail and oak bark.? 
> 
> Personally, I think that all weeds have value as fertilizer.? the more 
> mature the plant becomes the larger the carbon nitrogen ratio becomes. More 
> carbon and less Nitrogen. Weeds for liquid fertilizer are best used when 
> lush green.? I use woodier, older weed material in coarse material compost 
> piles.? 
> 
> Obviously you don't use plant material that has viable seed if it is a 
> species you don't want to increase. 
> 
> If a place doesn't have nettles they are well-advised to establish a patch 
> where it can spread, but not near pathways. 
> 
> Fermented plant liquid fertilizer has many yummies in it besides the N such 
> as minerals, all kinds of complex breakdown products and, according to 
> biodynamic thought, even lunar, solar and stellar influences.
> 
> Weedily
> 
> Michael Pilarski
> 
> --- On Thu, 5/27/10, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> 
> wrote:
> 
> From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: [permaculture] What weeds or cover crops are high in nitrogen, 
> i.e. suitable for harvesting to make High N liquid fertilizer?
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Thursday, May 27, 2010, 5:37 PM
> 
> 
> What weeds or cover crops are high in nitrogen, i.e. suitable for 
> harvesting to make High N liquid fertilizer?
> 
> Are there any weeds, natives, annual or perennial or woody that stand 
> out as far as nitrogen content is concerned?
> 
> Good to know so as to conserve patches of weeds that might otherwise get 
> cut of eliminated; best to incorporate them as an element in a 
> permaculture design or comprehensive plan for a property.
> 
> At my place I have an abundance of wild turnip greens/mustard, rye 
> grass, curly dock. These predominate as I have systematically gotten rid 
> of most of the Pennsylvania Smartweed, Bermuda, crabgrass, Johnson 
> grass, redroot pigweed and some of the lambs quarters. Maybe the LQ is a 
> candidate for a high N crop. Outside the garden areas I have a bumper 
> crop of red, white andtall sweet clovers, ryegrass, fescue and many 
> other desirable plants, all thanks to the abundant rain we have has 
> since winter, especially near the beginning of Spring.
> 
> I have domestic bees also, wild ones, probably from hives I had years 
> ago and swarmed or someone else's hives.
> 
> Thanks for any feedback.
> 
> ...:LL
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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> More information:
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums? http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums 
> And: http://www.richsoil.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 00:38:09 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: [permaculture] Fruiting of dwarf Meyer lemon and fertilizer
>       for it  (what type?).
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4BFF48B1.2050105@bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> 
> 
> I have a nice dwarf Meyer lemon in a large pot that set lots of blooms 
> this year. I think it need fertilizer of some sort. What type should I use?
> I have granular seaweed and compost I can apply, also rock phosphate,
> azomite and greensand. Would these be adequate? Does it need pH lowering 
> as a general measure, annually? It is potted in compost, potting soil,
> garden dirt and quarry rock dust but has not been fertilized in several 
> years.
> 
> If it set flowers does it mean that it will set fruit?
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 00:39:01 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Keith D Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] What weeds or cover crops are high in
>       nitrogen, i.e. suitable for harvesting to make High N liquid
>       fertilizer?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       
> <26364947.1275021541677.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>       
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Generally, the greener and less fibrous plants are the more relative N is 
> in them. Comfrey is, not surprisingly, high on the list of plants used for 
> this purpose but fresh green leaves of all kinds would qualify. Broadleaf 
> forbs would then have more, in general, than maturish grasses.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
>> Sent: May 27, 2010 8:37 PM
>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: [permaculture] What weeds or cover crops are high in nitrogen, 
>> i.e. suitable for harvesting to make High N liquid fertilizer?
>> 
>> 
>> What weeds or cover crops are high in nitrogen, i.e. suitable for 
>> harvesting to make High N liquid fertilizer?
>> 
>> Are there any weeds, natives, annual or perennial or woody that stand 
>> out as far as nitrogen content is concerned?
>> 
>> Good to know so as to conserve patches of weeds that might otherwise get 
>> cut of eliminated; best to incorporate them as an element in a 
>> permaculture design or comprehensive plan for a property.
>> 
>> At my place I have an abundance of wild turnip greens/mustard, rye 
>> grass, curly dock. These predominate as I have systematically gotten rid 
>> of most of the Pennsylvania Smartweed, Bermuda, crabgrass, Johnson 
>> grass, redroot pigweed and some of the lambs quarters. Maybe the LQ is a 
>> candidate for a high N crop. Outside the garden areas I have a bumper 
>> crop of red, white and tall sweet clovers, ryegrass, fescue and many 
>> other desirable plants, all thanks to the abundant rain we have has 
>> since winter, especially near the beginning of Spring.
>> 
>> I have domestic bees also, wild ones, probably from hives I had years 
>> ago and swarmed or someone else's hives.
>> 
>> Thanks for any feedback.
>> 
>> ...:LL
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>> More information:
>> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
>> permaculture forums  http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums 
>> And: http://www.richsoil.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:52:07 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Paul Stamets on the Oil Spill
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <704161.20603.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Native microbes have already been demonstrated to clean up native wetlands 
> of toxins such as oil. They will clean it up on their own, but it will also 
> take the wetlands some time to recover. Microbe companies work with the 
> natives to increase their numbers and speed up the process, just as 
> permaculturists speed up process of reforestation by understanding how 
> natural systems operate.
> 
> Cory
> 
> --- On Tue, 5/25/10, Holger Hieronimi <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> 
>> From: Holger Hieronimi <holger@tierramor.org>
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Paul Stamets on the Oil Spill
>> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Date: Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 10:54 PM
>> This is incredible-
>> (...well, actually not...)
>> 
>> I allways thought, that nature will someday make something
>> out of all 
>> this petroleum and plastic we released into earth system
>> during the last 
>> few decades.
>> Its solar energy and natural processes that created it,
>> after all-
>> the only thing is, that 50 or 100 years is not a lot for
>> evolutionary 
>> processes to to start happening-
>> here Stamets once again gives us a basket full of ideas how
>> to team up 
>> with this processes and acelerate them...
>> 
>> will we listen, or are we more happy with all these
>> apocalyptic 
>> scenarios that dominate media and internet news (even in
>> many PC and 
>> eco- activist networks) ???
>> 
>> Those are the news to spread-
>> 
>> kind regards
>> 
>> holger
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> El 25.05.2010 19:21, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
>> escribi?:
>>> Asunto:
>>> [permaculture] Paul Stamets on the Oil Spill
>>> De:
>>> Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
>>> Fecha:
>>> Mon, 24 May 2010 15:27:03 -0700
>>> 
>>> Para:
>>> permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>,
>> International 
>>> Permaculture List <permaculture@openpermaculture.org>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> We just spent a wonderful week with Paul Stamets at
>> his place in the Gulf Islands, and while we were there, the
>> BP Crisis Management Team called to get his advice. In a
>> way, that's pretty encouraging. People here were wondering
>> what Paul's got to say about the mess, and after the call he
>> put together a position paper on the spill and
>> mycoremediation. It's at
>>> 
>>> http://www.fungi.com/mycotech/petroleum_problem.html
>>> 
>>> Paul asks that this link go to anyone who can help.
>>> 
>>> Toby
>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ? ? 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>> searchstring
>> More information:
>> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
>> permaculture forums? http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums 
>> And: http://www.richsoil.com
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 14
> Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 00:53:55 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Keith D Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] IPC 9 and 10
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       
> <1391583.1275022435403.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>       
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Have it in both places (or more) and link them up electronically. Use the 
> Bioneers model with satellite events elsewhere and stop (at least reduce) 
> flying about the planet so much.
> Here in the states we could create a national gathering that joins all the 
> regionals via a similar digital convergence. Could be a lot of fun and 
> bring out the skills of the permageeky techno-wizzers (and their friends).
> We'd create masses of good content to share.
> 
> Merge international with national, national with regional.
> 
> Turn bad news into good...
> 
> And, as far as voting with our feet, I think boating to Cuba would better. 
> ;-)
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
>> Sent: May 27, 2010 11:54 PM
>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] IPC 9 and 10
>> 
>> Scott Pittman wrote:
>>> Hi Wes,
>>> 
>>> I have heard some very disturbing news about the convergence in Africa and
>>> am writing you for clarification.  Basically it is being reported that 
>>> Geoff
>>> Lawton and Ali Sharif bullied people into dropping Cuba (as we had agreed 
>>> on
>>> in Brazil) in favor of Jordan.
>>> 
>>> I am very disturbed about this treatment by our international body toward
>>> Cuba.  To my mind they have far more to offer IPC10 than does Jordan, 
>>> which
>>> as far as I can tell has one project done by Geoff Lawton to demonstrate. 
>>>  I
>>> am not interested in participating in his aggrandizement, particularly to
>>> the detriment of Cuba.
>>> 
>>> I would appreciate your take on what took place and the email addresses of
>>> anyone who participated in the selection so I can also solicit their 
>>> views.
>> 
>> I am not in the loop but would like to back all that Scott has said, to 
>> the letter. With all that Cuba has to offer, rich proving ground for 
>> work in the permaculture arena that it is, it is amazing to me that, 
>> when political protocol will allow a PC convergence in Cuba, that the so 
>> called "power elite" of this important movement turns down such a 
>> remarkable opportunity. Did you know that Cuba has one of the most 
>> robust, old and diverse ecological zones in the entire world, if not the 
>> most diverse? That is unique and beautiful, a rare thing. I have seen a 
>> TV documentary on it, on PBS. I'll bet the Cubans would arrange a side 
>> trip to this zone for the PC convergence attendees. Also, politically, 
>> it would be timely and productive for an international event like this 
>> to happen there, very important, in my view, an opportunity, maybe rare, 
>> not to be missed.
>> 
>> People in positions of authority with the power to create worthwhile 
>> happenings for permaculture folks all over the world should know better 
>> than to trade Cuba for Jordan for the convergence.
>> 
>> Also, for Americans, this would be an especially valuable opportunity to
>> see and be seen in Cuba, to promote Permaculture, better relations with 
>> the USA and to carry home valuable lessons and experiences to tell the 
>> rest of the country about, important as there is a vast and growing 
>> movement happening in my country, as there is all over the world.
>> 
>> Thank all the positive forces at work in out universe for this forum and 
>> for everyone who has made it the useful resource that is is and will 
>> continue to be.
>> 
>> How about two convergences or a split in the international governing 
>> body with each group going its own way and everyone else having a choice 
>> of two events each year?
>> 
>> The message is not to bully people but we can sure as hell vote with our 
>> feet.
>> 
>> Lawrence London
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> 
> 
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 88, Issue 44
> ********************************************