permaculture

[Udan Farm <udanfarm@yahoo.com>]

Having access to a library, or to the internet in one's home, and the time 
and scanner to scan all that info in, also conveys privilege on their 
part.Many third-world countries people do not and would not have access to 
the internet or that book.
Many Permaculture Teachers, Mr. Mollison included, have used their income to 
go to third world countries to teach permaculture to people who have neither 
money or the internet. None of them are getting rich.
I think it does smack of entitlement-because if one was were really serious 
about getting that book in their hands, they would FIND a way to take a 
permaculture course, and to obtain a copy of that book.
I think it is "trendy" for young people to want to "liberate" things-anarchy 
and all that.Try doing all the work that went into that book (three people, 
and I am guessing several years) and then YOU can give away YOUR book. Oh, 
and yes, you do have to have a Design Certificate in order to use the word 
Permaculture in your work.  Those of us that have worked hard to get that 
certificate cherish it's value.
Isabel



>From fdnokes@hotmail.com  Wed Nov 11 14:23:09 2009
Return-Path: <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id ACCE74C013; Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:23:09 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=REMOVE_BEFORE_LINK,
        STOX_REPLY_TYPE autolearn=disabled version=3.2.3
Received: from bay0-omc4-s28.bay0.hotmail.com (mc4.bay6.hotmail.com
        [65.54.190.230])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D7B34C013
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:22:53 -0500 (EST)
Received: from BAY136-DS5 ([65.54.190.199]) by bay0-omc4-s28.bay0.hotmail.com
        with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959);
        Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:22:53 -0800
X-Originating-IP: [96.54.109.217]
X-Originating-Email: [fdnokes@hotmail.com]
Message-ID: <BAY136-DS52823495EAEC2F2AE8E76B1AA0@phx.gbl>
From: <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
References: 
<475de0280911101833m7846612emad273410829a11d4@mail.gmail.com><00d101ca6284$e491b580$adb52080$@net><22d4eb790911111036x52414442j59126966c4bb3844@mail.gmail.com>
        <BAY136-DS79717865C71F6D7268C66B1AA0@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To: <BAY136-DS79717865C71F6D7268C66B1AA0@phx.gbl>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:22:58 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2009 19:22:53.0098 (UTC)
        FILETIME=[5D5E98A0:01CA6304]
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Copyright Infringement on
        PERMACULTURE:ADesigners Manual
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:23:09 -0000

I'm sorry.
I see that I left some ambiguity in my statement.
I meant to say that feeling that we NEED a particular book that we CANNOT
afford or that is NOT available to us, manifests fear/lack.
Feeling that we would like to study a book/system and allowing ourselves to
find a way to do so, manifests abundance.
It's important to keep a sense of our goals clear.
Personally, I like the tone in this forum which is open minded and open
ended.
Once we start to enshrine things, they tend to get out of hand, sooner or
later...
A good thing to avoid is the 'policing' aspect, and allow, instead, for a
free range of expression, tuition, etc.
In my mind.

Frances

--------------------------------------------------
From: <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:43 AM
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Copyright Infringement on
PERMACULTURE:ADesigners Manual

> Maybe we need to take a step back and look at the fear/lack orientation
> for
> what it is.
> Something well worth replacing with a faith/abundance perspective.
> (One of the most attractive aspects of Fukuoka's work: the intimate
> completion of an individual observing their own specific setting)
> Thus said, I am one of the information mongering tribe myself, and so,
> I'll
> see how I do taking a draft of my own medicine!
>
> I think, truly, that this information sharing aspect is what brings us
> together, and is more cause for celebration than anything else.
>
> On a personal level, I am inspired to visit the Hippocrates Institute in
> Florida to see, firsthand, what they are learning about food, because,
> they
> continually observe, assess, revise.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Frances
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "paul wheaton" <paul@richsoil.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:36 AM
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Copyright Infringement on PERMACULTURE:
> ADesigners Manual
>
>> Yowzers.
>>
>> Didn't we just have this conversation a couple of months ago?
>>
>> A quick google shows ...   it was july!
>>
>> Here's what I posted then:
>>
>> ---------------
>>
>> I am so confused.
>>
>> I don't even know what people are asking for.  I read the words and it
>> doesn't make any sense to me.  So I re-read and re-read and I'm still
>> lost.
>>
>> We seem to have folks that want to provide lots of permaculture info
>> for free.  So do it!  And isn't that the solution?  Are we then done?
>>
>> I know that there are some folks that have a bunch of information that
>> they are trying to sell.  That seems fine too.  Good for them for
>> making a lovely package, offering it a price that others are willing
>> to pay.  It sounds like everything worked out great.
>>
>> Surely nobody is suggesting that somebody else go and do a bunch of
>> work and not get paid for it - that would be slavery.  I think that if
>> a person stands up and says "I will give permaculture to the world!"
>> THAT is really awesome!  But if somebody says "YOU will give
>> permaculture to the world!" - THAT is seriously messed up.  And it is
>> so seriously messed up that that cannot be what anybody here is
>> suggesting.
>>
>> Therefore, I must not be understanding what the concern is.  Or what
>> people are suggesting.
>>
>> ---------------
>>
>> And then in august it was covered again at permies:
>>
>> http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums/1867_0/permaculture/the-big-permaculture-book-free
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:10 PM,  <ktho@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Um - no, Evan.
>>>
>>> Violating copyright interferes with Mollison's livelihood and just
>>> taking
>>> something you want, just because you want it smacks of entitlement
>>> issues.
>>> Stop being such an entitled Commie and respect other people's work. You
>>> don't get to decide for others what they ought to do just because you
>>> think
>>> they ought to do it. It's none of your business what Tagari and/or the
>>> Mollisons' are doing with their money. MYOB, and stop being such a
>>> special
>>> little snowflake. I doesn't matter that others have also stolen from
>>> Tagari.
>>> Their ass-hattery does not give you license to do the same.
>>>
>>> If I'd been Tagari, I'd have taken you for every penny and then some.
>>> You
>>> got off lightly. And stop threatening them with a Twitter campaign. That
>>> might be construed as admission of guilt for copyright violation, not to
>>> mention menacing and stalking.
>>>
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Evan
>>> Schoepke
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 6:33 PM
>>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org; Nicholas Roberts
>>> Subject: [permaculture] Fwd: Copyright Infringement on PERMACULTURE: A
>>> Designers Manual
>>>
>>>  Ingenio "Patent"
>>> Campus?<http://punkrockpermaculture.com/2009/11/10/permieliberation/>
>>> .November
>>> 10, 2009 . Leave a
>>> Comment<http://punkrockpermaculture.com/2009/11/10/permieliberation/#respond
>>>>
>>>
>>> (Edit<http://punkrockpermaculture.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?actioníi
>>> t&postD6>
>>> )
>>>
>>> Hello lovely Permies,
>>>
>>> Due to my posting of the entire Permaculture Designers
>>> Manual,<http://astore.amazon.com/punkrockperme-20> commonly know
>>> as the permaculture bible, I received a swift take down notice from
>>> Tagari
>>> Publications <http://www.tagari.com/>
>>> andScribd<http://www.scribd.com/Gaia%20Punk> which
>>> I respectfully followed.  It is my opinion that this book is so
>>> *important* that
>>> it should be made  completely free on all the myriad internets because
>>> we're
>>> living in a time of extreme ecological and social crisis and the tools
>>> needed to fix the crises must be made available to everyone not just
>>> those
>>> with the economic  privilege to afford them.  Please see the letters
>>> below
>>> and also* please comment* if you think the designers manual should be
>>> liberated onto the internet.  I feel this debate gets at the very heart
>>> of
>>> the permaculture ethic of "fair share" and  I will post any further
>>> correspondence with Tagari here and elsewhere.
>>>
>>> I'm starting a *campaign on **twitter* <http://twitter.com/gaiapunk>
>>> advocating
>>> for the *free release* of the permaculture designers manual. *@gaiapunk
>>> #permieliberation*
>>>
>>> *ATTENTION: Evan Schoepke*
>>>
>>> Pursuant to 17 USC 512(c)(3)(A), this communication serves as a
>>> statement
>>> that:
>>>
>>> I am the exclusive rights holder (being the Publisher) for the book
>>> titled:
>>> *Permaculture: A Designers' Manual* written by Bill Mollison.
>>> ISBN 0 908228 01 5 and first published in Australia in 1988 and
>>> reprinted
>>> in
>>> 2004, 2009 by Tagari Publications, Australia.
>>>
>>> These exclusive rights are being violated by material that has been
>>> available upon your site at the following URL(s):
>>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/22260478/Permaculture-D-Manual and
>>> http://punkrockpermaculture.com/.
>>> I have a good faith belief that the use of this material in such a
>>> fashion
>>> is not authorized by the copyright holder, the copyright holder's agent,
>>> or
>>> the law;
>>>
>>> Under penalty of perjury in a United States court of law, I state that
>>> the
>>> information contained in this notification is accurate, and that I am
>>> authorized to act on the behalf of the exclusive rights holder for the
>>> material in question.
>>>
>>> I may be contacted by the following methods:
>>> *Phone:* (Aus) 61 + 3 6445 0945
>>> *Fax:* 61 + 3 6445 0944
>>> *Address:* 31 Rulla Road, Sisters Creek, Tasmania, 7325, Australia
>>> *Email:* mollison.lisa@tagari.com
>>>
>>> I hereby request that you remove or disable access to this material now
>>> and
>>> in the future as it appears on your service in as expedient a fashion as
>>> possible. Thank you.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Lisa Mollison
>>> Director
>>>
>>> My reply:
>>>
>>> [image: permaculture
>>> logo]<http://punkrockpermaculture.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/permaculture-l
>>> ogo.jpg>
>>>
>>> Okay Tagari,
>>> the book is gone,
>>> I have lost the battle,
>>>
>>> however I do know of other places you could find it online for free.  As
>>> a
>>> practicing certified urban permaculturalist I believe this event brings
>>> up a
>>> interesting philosophical debate.  This book *is* the permaculture bible
>>> and
>>> I know that Tagari publishers is sole legal guardian of it's legacy.  In
>>> fact I love Tagari, and everything it stands for, what it's doing with
>>> the
>>> money it earns, all of it. But, I still think the book should be
>>> released
>>> onto the internets for free!  Why? Well, because if there is anything
>>> Bill
>>> has shown me it is that we definately don't have the gaurentee of
>>> permanence to solve the ecological and social crisis that we are facing.
>>> I
>>> feel that perhaps I come from a new and starkly different generation
>>> that
>>> believes in a type of movement building that allows for the funding of
>>> projects by lots of people paying a small amount instead of a
>>> few privileged folks paying a lot of money.  I would really love to read
>>> Bill's book on fermentation, supposedly his best work, but it's also
>>> very
>>> expensive.  I'm not saying Tagari should let go of all it's copyrights
>>> but I
>>> am asking if the time has come for the designers manual to be liberated,
>>> what do you think?  Someday I'm sure the designers manual will be
>>> available
>>> free in the public commons and that could make a very large impact, lets
>>> hope that day does not come too late.  Will the field continue to lie
>>> open
>>> to every intellect (*ingenio patet campus*) regardless of income?  I'm
>>> interested in your response and wish the very best with all the amazing
>>> and
>>> inspiring work your doing now and in the future.
>>>
>>> With the greatest respect for Bill, Lisa, Tagari, and the entire global
>>> permaculture network,
>>>
>>> Have a fair share day!,
>>>
>>> Evan C. Schoepke
>>>
>>> Gaia Punk Designs
>>>
>>> 713 Division ST
>>> Olympia WA, USA
>>> 98502
>>> thejulianeffect(at)gmail.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> Google command to search archives:
>>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> Google command to search archives:
>>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Google command to search archives:
> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>
>
>