[b-hebrew] Relationship of כרך, 'wrap around, surround', to כרר?
if at math.bu.edu
Tue Jul 9 17:11:00 EDT 2013
1. We need to separate the root from the verb (act) and the noun (name.)
The act (act!) KARAK כרך means 'to wrap', yet the root (root!) KRK
nothing to do with 'go around'.
We have already mentioned the example of ארגז ARGAZ, 'box, chest',
of 1Sam 6:8 and ROGEZ רוגז (related to ROGE$), 'anger, excitement'.
They are both from the root RGZ, which has nothing to do, not with
anger and not with boxiness.
2. I am sorry, but I have to ignore your references to "Akkadian" and
"Ugaritic" as I am unable to verify them. Looking up an English
"Akkadian dictionary" does not count.
3. So, what is the etymology of GALGAL (and the place name GILGAL)?
Something that turns around?
4. And what is the etymology of the כרכרה KIRKARAH of Is. 66:20?
5. I see no evidence that the act KARKAR is 'to whirl', but I know
think so. Some 100 years ago when a Hebrew equivalent was sought for
the great Hebrew poet X. N. Bialik suggested KIRKAR, but it failed to
and what is used now is סביבון SBIYBON, from the act SABAB, 'go
as the classical Hebrew nursery rhyme says
סביבון סוב סוב סוב חנוכה הוא חג טוב
Isaac Fried, Boston University
On Jul 9, 2013, at 2:05 PM, Stewart Felker wrote:
> - - - "A Hebrew root can not mean something as complex as 'go
> What? How is that substantially different than "wrap around" (in
> fact, with suggesting "go around" I was trying to SIMPLIFY a little
> from something as specific as "wrap around")? Oh, and I wasn't
> proposing that that was only a Hebrew root – I was proposing it as
> a shared Semitic root.
> - - - In Mishnaic Hebrew, and in spoken Hebrew, the act כרך KARAK
> came to mean 'to wind or wrap around'.
> If you're suggesting that this is a later development, I'd point
> you to things like Akkadian kirḫu, 'circumvallation (e.g.
> encircling trenches), enclosure wall of a sanctuary'. Cf. also
> Aramaic כרכא 'enclosed area' or 'roll, scroll'.
> - - - “In my opinion the root KRK is a variant of the roots XRG,
> XRK, XRQ.”
> חרג, "to come out in terror, quake"; חרך, 'to roast, singe';
> חרק, 'to grind or gnash'. Am I missing something?
> - - - "In my opinion גלגל GALGAL, 'wheel', is the compound GAL-
> GAL, namely two (many?) hills, one hill up and one hill down
> touching the ground."
> I doubt anyone else would ever accept that (myself included).
> - - - "KARKAR is not specifically 'turn around', but rather 'hop
> I think you'll find other occurrences where it has a meaning more
> like the former/'go around' (and again, see the Arabic and Ugaritic
> I cited earlier). Also, Gen. Rabbah 45:10, רבי אבא בשם
> רבי בירי כמה כרכורים כרכר בשביל
> להשיח עמה, ויאמר לא כי צחקת.
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Isaac Fried <if at math.bu.edu> wrote:
> 1. I am not sure where Klein gets his etymologies.
> 2. It is not entirely clear what the תכריך TA-KRIYK of Esther
> 8:15 is. It is accepted to mean a band or a sash or a wrap. In
> Mishnaic Hebrew, and in spoken Hebrew, the act כרך KARAK came to
> mean 'to wind or wrap around'.
> 3. A Hebrew root can not mean something as complex as 'go around'.
> In my opinion the root KRK is a variant of the roots XRG, XRK, XRQ
> חרג חרך חרק
> 4. I believe the Hebrew root to be a compound of uni-literal roots,
> thus KRK = K-R-K, with the uni-literal root R indicating that KRK
> refers to a material state of several bodies.
> 5. In my opinion גלגל GALGAL, 'wheel', is the compound GAL-GAL,
> namely two (many?) hills, one hill up and one hill down touching
> the ground.
> 6. Possibly, in his many כרכורים KIRKURIYM, King David
> occasionally also whirled around, but KARKAR is not specifically
> 'turn around', but rather 'hop around'. My Arabic dictionary says
> on KRKR كركر that it is 'pile up, drive together'.
> In my opinion כר KAR is a variant of הר HAR, 'mound'.
> 7. I think we should leave "Akkadian" and its "dictionaries" alone.
> Isaac Fried, Boston University
> On Jul 9, 2013, at 6:20 AM, Stewart Felker wrote:
>> You may realize this, but my post was mainly an attempt to
>> understand KLEIN's logic/language - not necessarily my own. I
>> couldn't understand what he meant that it is a "properly a
>> shortened form of base כרר."
>> That being said, karkar does not exclusively mean "dance, leap,
>> move vigorously and rhythmically." I think that the other Semitic
>> cognates may suggest a more generalized meaning - something like
>> "go around"...cf. the Ugaritic and Arabic I cited; PbH 'go
>> around'; also Ge'ez kʷrkʷr 'roll, roll around', and forms
>> 'rotation', 'turning round'.
>> The question is not whether כרך is the root word behind
>> תכריך (which it is obviously is).
>> You said "Hebrew words 'come from' a root, not from each other."
>> I'm pretty sure you don't really mean what you seem to be saying
>> here (considering the implications for the existence of a language
>> that evolves). Do you merely mean to say that כרך is a primitive
>> root ('irreducible', we might say)? Because evidence of some
>> affinity with a probable root *k(V)r - "go around" (> "wrap,
>> surround") - suggests otherwise.
>> Perhaps the situation is illuminated by reference to another
>> common Semitic word. Leslau notes that Ge'ez ʾangallaga,
>> "assemble, come together" is "an abbreviated root from ʾan-glgl",
>> 'congregation, assembly, council' (cf. Tigre gälgäla 'gather').
>> The sense of development here is perhaps from 'rolling together'.
>> Cf. גלגל and its cognates - v. 'to roll', n. 'wheel'.
>> Finally...are you doubting whether Akk. kababu can mean 'to
>> roast' (specifically), or are you doubting whether kababu means
>> anything like that at all? (Or, perhaps, are you doubting whether
>> it even exists?) Because it is well-attested with these meanings.
>> Here is the entry in CAD: http://i.imgur.com/hU53ghb.png.
>> Stewart Felker
>> Univ. of Memphis
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