[b-hebrew] 1 Kings 20:14 Who are the young men, princes of the districts?

jimstinehart at aol.com jimstinehart at aol.com
Fri Apr 30 20:58:11 EDT 2010

James Christian:

HRRM means "hill country".  That word is unique to Genesis 14: 6.  %(YR means "well-wooded".  The well-wooded hill country was in the Transjordan, not south of the Dead Sea.  El-paran as well is unique to Genesis 14: 6.  When areas south of Canaan are being referenced, what one sees is MDBR P)RN at Genesis 21: 21, or Havilah at Genesis 25: 18.  In a sentence that begins (at Genesis 14: 5) with Ashteroth in the northern Transjordan, the natural meaning of El-paran/Great Desert is:  Great Desert, that is, the Great Desert/Syro-Arabian Desert that borders the entirety of the Transjordan.  The words in both of these cases are different.  )YL P)RN and HRRM are both unique to chapter 14 of Genesis.  The scholarly view, believe it or not, is that El-paran means a navigable body of water, the Gulf of Aqaba, 100 miles south of the Dead Sea.  See the map on page 15 of Anson Rainey's "The Sacred Bridge".  But the natural meaning of El-paran is the Great Desert, which stretches in magnificent desolation from the Transjordan all the long way to Babylon.

Jim Stinehart
Evanston, Illinois

-----Original Message-----
From: James Christian <jc.bhebrew at googlemail.com>
To: JimStinehart at aol.com
Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Fri, Apr 30, 2010 6:51 pm
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1 Kings 20:14 Who are the young men, princes of the districts?

you are completely out of touch with reality. Read Genesis 14:6 and then try
nd tell me that this account is not referring to places South of the dead
ea. As Karl has already stated to you here on planet Earth the mountains of
eir and the desert of Paran are very much South of the dead sea.
James Christian
On 1 May 2010 00:42, <JimStinehart at aol.com> wrote:
>  James Christian:

 1.  You wrote:  “Where you lose people, even those who doubt the authenticity 
f Genesis and the reliability of its contents, is your blatant refusal in face 
f the linguistic facts that the story of Sodom and Gomorah relates how a once 
ertile region became a desolate waste.”

 My post was limited to chapter 14 of Genesis.  There is nothing in chapter 14 
f Genesis about “how a once fertile region became a desolate waste.”

 Once one leaves chapter 14 of Genesis, then one loses most all mainstream 
niversity scholars as to a Late Bronze Age composition date.  So in the last 
ew days I have narrowly limited my comments to chapter 14 of Genesis.  I 
isagree with your interpretation of chapter 19 of Genesis, but for right now, 
’d prefer to keep the focus on chapter 14 of Genesis.

 2.  You wrote:  “When you make claims such as no mountains South of the dead 

 That’s totally false.  I am very well aware of the fact that there are 
ountains south of the Dead Sea.  I have posted on that very subject several 
imes in recent days.  Genesis 36: 8-9 is talking about Mt./HR Seir, south of 
he Dead Sea.  My point is that chapter 14 of Genesis, by sharp contrast, is 
alking about HRRM/hill country, not Mt. Seir south of the Dead Sea.  The word 
(YR means “hairy”, and is often thought to imply “well-wooded”.  There is 
ell-wooded hill country in the Transjordan, that’s for sure, but there’s no 
ell-wooded hill country south of the Dead Sea.

 Indeed, HR at Genesis 36: 8-9 vs. HRRM at Genesis 14: 6 is a perfect issue 
oncerning Biblical Hebrew language issues to discuss on the b-hebrew list.  So 
any of the words in chapter 14 of Genesis are archaic that it must be a Late 
ronze Age composition.

 3.  You wrote:  “…you alienate your readership even further. I was in the 
rabah only a few weeks ago as I made my way from Eilat to Jerusalem for the 
assover along the King's highway and I can assure you that there is a mountain 
ange on the Israel - Jordan border that stretches from Aqaba right the way up 
o the dead sea. I can also assure you that many of the mountains have a 
istinct reddish colour which we associate with Edom. “

 There you go again talking about Genesis 36: 8-43, whereas by contrast, I am 
alking about truly ancient chapter 14 of Genesis.

 In the Patriarchal Age, there was no state of Edom.  All mainstream scholars 
ee that famous passage in chapter 36 of Genesis as being very late:

 “[Genesis] 36: 31 (‘these are the kings who reigned in the land of Edom before 
 king reigned over the Israelites’) suggests that the list originates from the 
eriod of the early monarchy [10th century BCE].  If it were from an earlier 
eriod [the Late Bronze Age], such a statement would be impossible.”  Gary 
endsburg, “The Redaction of Genesis”, at p. 110.* *

 In fact, I believe that Yigal Levin himself made a comment along those very 
ame lines recently.

 If you want to talk about the 1st millennium BCE state of Edom, you can talk 
bout Genesis 36: 8-43.  But I’m talking about the Patriarchal Age in the 
id-14th century BCE, per the truly ancient composition of chapter 14 of 

 Indeed, one of my key arguments is the exact opposite of what you assert.  
RRM at Genesis 14: 6 is referring to the hill country of the Transjordan, not 
o Mt./HR Seir south of the Dead Sea in the 1st millennium BCE state of Edom.

 I am very well aware that there are “mountains [that] have a distinct reddish 
olour” south of the Dead Sea.  But that part of the world is never referenced 
n any way, shape or form in chapter 14 of Genesis.  That’s my point, you see.  
f we could just get the underlying geography right for the “four kings against 
ive”, then we could convince mainstream scholars that they are in error in 
enying the historicity of Genesis 14: 1-11.  The geography is critical.  
rofessor Yigal Levin is one of the leading Biblical geographers in the world, 
ased on his published article about QD$ and the talk he will be giving for 
nson Rainey concerning Biblical geographical matters.  Until and unless we can 
et someone of Prof. Levin’s great stature to glance  n-o-r-t-h  of the Dead Sea 
n analyzing Genesis 14: 6-7 on the basis of Late Bronze Age historical 
nscriptions, mainstream scholars will never see the pinpoint historical 
ccuracy of the “four kings against five” in its description of the harrowing 
irst year of the Great Syrian War.  The geography is the key to re-establishing 
he historicity of the “four kings against five”.  That’s our only chance of 
etting mainstream university scholars to change their minds about Genesis 14: 

 Both the early Hebrew author of the truly ancient chapter 14 of Genesis, and 
oday’s university scholars, know that the Hurrians and the Amorites never lived 
outh of the Dead Sea.  Consequently, the unanimous view of the scholarly 
ommunity today that the Amorites and Horites/Hurrians at Genesis 14: 6-7 are 
ortrayed as living south of the Dead Sea is dead wrong.  That’s my point.  
ntil and unless we can get university scholars over that hump, there’s no 
hance that they’ll recognize the pinpoint historical accuracy, in a Late Bronze 
ge context, of the “four kings against five”.

 Jim Stinehart

 Evanston, Illinois

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