[b-hebrew] Exo 12:40 430 years

James Read J.Read-2 at sms.ed.ac.uk
Sat Jul 4 11:42:35 EDT 2009


Hi Steve,

you state that MT is generally better than LXX. What do you base this  
on? I've been looking into this a lot recently. We don't even know  
what the LXX originally looked like and so, personally, I find it more  
useful to discuss specific texts like the codex vaticanus and the  
codex sinaiticus. The MT frequently mistakes gender (confuses he with  
she). How confidence building is that?

James Christian

Quoting "Bryant J. Williams III" <bjwvmw at com-pair.net>:

> Dear Steve,
>
> LXX:
>
> 12:40-41
> 40: hH DE KATOIKHSIS TWN hUIWN ISRAHL hHN KATWiKHSAN EN GHi AIGUPTWi  
>  KAI EN GHi
> CANAAN ETH TERAKOSIA TRIAKONTA
>
> 41: KAI EGENETO META TA TETRAKOSIA TRIAKONTA hETH EXHLQE PASA hH   
> DUNAMIS KURIOU
> EK GHS AIGHPTOU NUKTOS
>
> MT:
> 40: WMO$aB Bin" YISRAEL A$ER YA$:BU B:MICRAYIM $:LO$IM $ABAH W:)R:BA( M")OT
> $ANAH
>
> 41: WaY:HI MIQQEC $:LO$IM $ANAH W:)AR:Ba( ME)OT $ANAH  WaH:HI Bi(eCeM HaYYOM
> HaZZeH YAC:)U COL-CiB:)OT YHWH ME)eReC MICRAYIM
>
> Twice is the emphasis placed on 430 years. This would have to mean   
> from the time
> of "Israel (Jacob) entered Egypt to the time of departure. Verse 41 is quite
> emphatic about it "to the very day."
>
> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Miller" <smille10 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'K Randolph'" <kwrandolph at gmail.com>; "'B-Hebrew'"
> <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 12:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Exo 12:40 430 years
>
>
>
>> From: K Randolph Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 2:33 PM
>>
>> Steve:
>>
>> How good is the text in this verse? Evidence from the LXX is that
>> there is a phrase missing that would help clear things up. Do you know
>> if there are any findings in the DSS that would back up the LXX?
>
> [Steve Miller] Thanks Karl.
>
> LXX: Now the dwelling of the children of Israel, which they dwelt in the
> land of Egypt and in the land of Canaan, was 430 years.
>
> Samaritan: Now the dwelling of the children of Israel and their fathers,
> which they dwelt in the land of Canaan and in the land of Egypt, was 430
> years.
>
> DSS agrees with MT except that it says "land of Egypt" instead of just
> "Egypt".
>
> The differences between LXX and SP, plus DSS agreeing with MT, plus MT being
> generally much better than LXX or SP, lead me to think that MT or DSS is the
> correct text.
>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Steve Miller<smille10 at sbcglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>> > Exo 12:40 And the dwelling of the children of Israel, who dwelt in
>> Egypt,
>> > was four hundred and thirty years.
>> >
>> > 41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years,
>> even
>> > the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went
>> out
>> > from the land of Egypt.
>> >
>> > Questions:
>> >
>> > 1.   What is the antecedent of "asher" in Exo 12:40?
>> >
>> > a.   Is it "dwelling" as in:
>> > And the dwelling of the children of Israel, which [dwelling] they [the
>> > children of Israel] dwelt in Egypt, was 430 years?
>> > b.   Or is the antecedent "the children of Israel" as in:
>> > And the dwelling of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was 430
>> > years?
>> >
>> a.
>>
>> > 2.   What is the point of the "asher" phrase? If the intent was to
>> say
>> > that the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt 430 years, why not just say
>> "And
>> > the dwelling in Egypt of the children of Israel was 430 years?
>>
>> It makes sense if a phrase is missing.
> [Steve Miller] That is a good point.
>>
>> > 3.   Does the Hebrew of v40 state unequivocally that Israel dwelt in
>> > Egypt for 430 years?
>>
>> As the MT presently stands, yes.
>>
>> > The Stone Tanach translates the "asher" phrase as
>> > "during which they dwelt in Egypt", but I don't know of a precedent for
>> > adding "during". Could the "asher" phrase be translated "who then dwelt
>> in
>> > Egypt"?
>>
>> Nah.
>>
>> > 4.   Is it possible for the term "children of Israel" to include
>> Abraham,
>> > Isaac and Jacob? Is there another place in the Bible where it so refers?
>>
>> Good question.
>>
>> > 5.   I know that the main Jewish interpretation is that the 430 years
>> > includes the sojourning of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so that the actual
>> > time in Egypt was only 210 or 215 years. Is there another ancient
>> Jewish
>> > interpretation that says that Israel spent 430 years just in Egypt?
>> >
>> Well, the LXX backs up the Jewish tradition, which indicates that
>> maybe the MT is faulty here.
>>
>> > Thank you for your time.
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> >
>> > -Steve Miller
>> >
>> > Detroit
>> >
>> > www.voiceInWilderness.info
>> > A man's life consists not in the abundance of the things which he
>> possesses.
>> > (Luke 12:15)
>> >
>> It would be nice to find some pre-exile texts of Tanakh for
>> comparison. But right now thats a pipe dream. Even the evidence from
>> the DSS is only fragmentory where many of our questions are found in
>> the gaps in the DSS coverage. So we work with what we have.
>>
>> Karl W. Randolph.
>
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