[b-hebrew] Was Abraham Born in Mesopotamia?
leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il
Tue Nov 6 14:43:15 EST 2007
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----- Original Message -----
From: "jason silber" <uzisilber at gmail.com>
To: "K Randolph" <kwrandolph at gmail.com>
Cc: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Was Abraham Born in Mesopotamia?
>K et al,
> baymim hahem, doesnt mean 'yesterday', or last week. it means a very long
> time ago. it meant that throughout early jewish history through mishniaic
> times too.
> ok, no need to get didactic about 'bayamim hahem'. i was referring to all
> variations on the notion of bayamim hahem that would imply that the
> recording of the event as we read it occurred a very long time after the
> events took place. 'ad hayom hazeh' is another version, as is the use of
> a reminder:.
> 1) genesis 12:6 -- 'vehaknaani az baaretz' and also in 13:7...the land was
> free of canaanites and prizites this implies that thw writer was writing
> long after canaanites were gone from the scene, which imples hundreds of
> years after the events described
> (incidentally i do note that the footprints of an old source are evidenced
> by the references to el elyon and its cohen and el shadday).
> 2) the sdom story, referring to the birth of Moav and Amon in 19: 37,38.
> 'avi moav (and) avi amon ad hayom'. or that theses two brothers (results
> incest) were the founding fathers of what was known in the writers day as
> the nations of amon and moav. again,many years after the events of sdom
> 3) 21 beer sheva was a site known by its readers (hagar was lurking in
> desert there) but a few verses later the readers were given a history of
> 4) the fact the abe lived in Pleshet many days, again written from a later
> 5) as for luz, the text says that luz was the original name of beit el
> not that it was a nickname like windy city of big apple or big easy.
> On 11/5/07, K Randolph <kwrandolph at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/5/07, jason silber <uzisilber at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Jim,
>> > throughout early genesis, especially in the Abraham cycle, there are
>> > references to 'bayamim hahem', 'in those days',
>> I just did a quick electronic search, and that phrase is found only
>> once in Genesis, in Genesis 6:4, i.e. referring to the antediluvian
>> epoch. The exact phrase is not used once concerning Abraham through
>> Jacob's sons.
>> The other 38 verses in Tanakh where it is found include Moses writing
>> about himself Exodus 2:11, concerning the future Deuteronomy 17:9,
>> 19:17, 26:3 Joshua 20:6, Joel 2:29, etc. The phrase is nonspecific,
>> could refer to any time period other than the present.
>> > ... confirming that that the
>> > writer (or editor) had compiled the information much later -- id guess
>> > during the eras of Hezekiah or Josiah. (or 700 years after the
>> > purported
>> > events were supposed to occur?)
>> What references am I missing? Or rather, did my computer miss?
>> > there are also references to towns being known differently at one point
>> > and Beit El which was once luz, and hevron nee kiryat arba)
>> Or is it that many towns may have had an official name, but
>> unofficially known by other names (e.g. "Windy City", "Babylon by the
>> Bay", "'J' City", etc.)?
>> > the semi mythical nature would explain the multiple versions of events,
>> > doublets, the same events featuring different characters, the rounded
>> > numbers (in baylonian style) of 180, 120, 40.
>> That is most descriptive of the book of Judges where, except for a few
>> stories which were written down, most information gives the impression
>> of being recalled from oral stories later. Hence much of the history
>> is very sketchy.
>> > so wouldn't you agree that while some of the semi mythical information
>> > originate from sources from, say, the 15th century, that the writer who
>> > ultimately put this fathers cycles together would have lived in the 8th
>> > century BCE at the earliest?
>> > uzi
>> Not with the information you have provided so far.
>> Karl W. Randolph.
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