[b-hebrew] Was Abraham Born in Mesopotamia?

Yigal Levin leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il
Tue Nov 6 14:43:15 EST 2007


Dear Jason/Uzi,

You have been repetedly ignoring requests that you sign your posts with your 
full name, as per list rules. any more unsigned posts and the moderators 
will have no choise but ti put you on moderation, which means that your 
posts will be held until one of the moderators has a chance to look at it, 
and then if it is unsigned, be rejected.

Yigal Levin,

co-moderator


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jason silber" <uzisilber at gmail.com>
To: "K Randolph" <kwrandolph at gmail.com>
Cc: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Was Abraham Born in Mesopotamia?


>K et al,
>
> baymim hahem, doesnt mean 'yesterday', or last week.  it means a very long
> time ago.  it meant that throughout early jewish history through mishniaic
> times too.
>
> ok, no need to get didactic about 'bayamim hahem'.  i was referring to all
> variations on the notion of bayamim hahem that would imply that the
> recording of the event as we read it occurred a very long time after the
> events took place.  'ad hayom hazeh' is another version, as is the use of
> 'az'.
>
> a reminder:.
>
> 1) genesis 12:6 -- 'vehaknaani az baaretz' and also in 13:7...the land was
> free of canaanites and prizites  this implies that thw writer was writing
> long after canaanites were gone from the scene, which imples hundreds of
> years after the events described
>
> (incidentally i do note that the footprints of an old source are evidenced
> by the references to el elyon and its cohen and el shadday).
>
> 2) the sdom story, referring to the birth of Moav and Amon in 19: 37,38.
> 'avi moav (and) avi amon ad hayom'.  or that theses two brothers (results 
> of
> incest) were the founding fathers of what was known in the writers day as
> the nations of amon and moav.  again,many years after the events of sdom
>
>
> 3) 21  beer sheva was a site known by its readers (hagar was lurking in 
> the
> desert there) but a few verses later the readers were given a history of 
> its
> naming.
>
> 4) the fact the abe lived in Pleshet many days, again written from a later
> perspective.
>
> 5)  as for luz, the text says that luz was the original name of beit el
> not that it was a nickname like windy city of big apple or big easy.
>
> uzi
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
> On 11/5/07, K Randolph <kwrandolph at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Jason:
>>
>> On 11/5/07, jason silber <uzisilber at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Jim,
>> > throughout early genesis, especially in the Abraham cycle, there are
>> several
>> > references to 'bayamim hahem', 'in those days',
>>
>> I just did a quick electronic search, and that phrase is found only
>> once in Genesis, in Genesis 6:4, i.e. referring to the antediluvian
>> epoch. The exact phrase is not used once concerning Abraham through
>> Jacob's sons.
>>
>> The other 38 verses in Tanakh where it is found include Moses writing
>> about himself Exodus 2:11, concerning the future Deuteronomy 17:9,
>> 19:17, 26:3 Joshua 20:6, Joel 2:29, etc. The phrase is nonspecific,
>> could refer to any time period other than the present.
>>
>> > ... confirming that that the
>> > writer (or editor) had compiled the information much later -- id guess
>> > during the eras of Hezekiah or Josiah. (or 700 years after the 
>> > purported
>>
>> > events were supposed to occur?)
>> >
>> What references am I missing? Or rather, did my computer miss?
>>
>> > there are also references to towns being known differently at one point
>> )
>> > and Beit El which was once luz, and hevron nee kiryat arba)
>> >
>> Or is it that many towns may have had an official name, but
>> unofficially known by other names (e.g. "Windy City", "Babylon by the
>> Bay", "'J' City", etc.)?
>>
>> > the semi mythical nature would explain the multiple versions of events,
>> the
>> > doublets, the same events featuring different characters, the rounded
>> > numbers (in baylonian style) of 180, 120, 40.
>> >
>> That is most descriptive of the book of Judges where, except for a few
>> stories which were written down, most information gives the impression
>> of being recalled from oral stories later. Hence much of the history
>> is very sketchy.
>>
>> > so wouldn't you agree that while some of the semi mythical information
>> may
>> > originate from sources from, say, the 15th century, that the writer who
>> > ultimately put this fathers cycles together would have lived in the 8th
>> > century BCE at the earliest?
>> > uzi
>> >
>> Not with the information you have provided so far.
>>
>> Karl W. Randolph.
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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