pporta at oham.net
pporta at oham.net
Sat Nov 3 04:33:25 EDT 2007
> Pere Porta:
> You wrote: "MWLDT is the Hiph'il Participle, singular feminine of verb
> to bring forth. Thus its literal meaning is "(female) who causes to
> forth", the same
> as "MWRDT" means "(female) who causes to go down" (of YRD). …
> From my answer above it is clear that MWLDT must rather point out to
> ancestors than to descendants."
> The three answers I have gotten as to what the meaning of MWLDT is are
I'm not able to make a good answer to your reasoning below. By saying that
from a gramatical point of view MWOLEDET (*) means "female who causes to
bring forth" I wanted only to help, to cast some light hereon.
In a neutral viewing, "MWOLEDET = female who causes to bring forth" can
refer either to past times (ancestors) or to future times (descendants). But
my feeling is that in biblical writings which you are telling on (Joseph and
his brothers, etc.) it clearly points out to the past. "Relatives, kindred,
(family?), offspring" are, in my opinion, good words for MWOLEDET.
Sorry for not being able to do more for you.
(*) remark: MWO, not MOW
Let's look at a specific verse of text, which may shed light on this
> matter. Jacob's older sons, whose mother is Leah, have returned from
> where they bought food from a high Egyptian official who is their younger
> half-brother, Joseph, in disguise. (Joseph's mother is Rachel.) Jacob's
> sons are reporting to their father Jacob the strange series of questions
> this Egyptian official had asked them:
> "And they said: 'The man asked straitly concerning ourselves, and
> concerning our MWLDT, saying: Is your father yet alive? have ye another
> brother? and
> we told him according to the tenor of these words; could we in any wise
> know that he would say: Bring your brother down?'" Genesis 43: 7
> (It is clear in context here that "brother" includes both a full-brother
> a half-brother.)
> 1. On your view, if I am understanding you correctly, in asking about
> older half-brothers' MWLDT, Joseph had asked about the mother of Jacob's
> sons. That is impossible. Joseph has no interest in Leah, the mother of
> his older half-brothers. Leah is not Joseph's mother, and Leah is not the
> mother of the one person Jacob is most concerned about at this point:
> only full-brother, Benjamin.
> 2. If I understand Karl W. Randolph correctly (which perhaps is
> Joseph is asking about the place of Jacob's older sons' birth. That also
> makes no sense. Joseph knows they were born in Harran. Joseph has no
> in Harran whatsoever. No, Joseph is only interested in whether he has
> full-brother, Benjamin, who is alive and well. Joseph knows that
> was born in Canaan, whereas Joseph's older half-brothers were born in
> Joseph is not asking about conditions in Harran or in Canaan, or where is
> older half-brothers are from. Joseph has no interest in any such
> Rather, Joseph is only interested in finding out if the father of his
> half-brothers has a son by another wife, who would be Joseph's only
> 3. On my view, everything makes perfect sense. MWLDT means "father's
> descendants". Joseph is asking his older half-brothers about their
> descendants". Thus Joseph is indirectly, but pointedly, asking his older
> half-brothers if they have a younger half-brother (Benjamin) by the same
> father who
> is alive and well, and who would be Joseph's only full-brother.
> It is perhaps relevant that JPS1917 translates MWLDT here as "kindred",
> which is very close to my meaning of "father's descendants". "Kindred"
> nothing to do with either female ancestors or the geographical place of
> I recognize now that I erred in viewing the mem at the beginning of MWLDT
> meaning "from". Based on what I have now learned, here is my new way of
> understanding MWLDT.
> MWLDT/"mowledeth" literally means "the place from where one was brought
> forth". As such, it can have the following two meanings. It can mean
> father's descendants", with all such persons having been "brought forth"
> by the
> father (either directly, as the father's sons, or indirectly, as the
> descendants of the father's sons), from one or more females. The female
> aspect of
> the word has to do with the fact that each child is born of a woman, yet
> word is referring to all persons brought forth by the father by all
> (That includes all of the father's wives, and all of the father's
> daughters-in-law.) In that meaning, the focus is on the person's
> siblings, and has nothing
> whatsoever to do with geography.
> Alternatively, MWLDT/"mowledeth" could mean "the geographical place where
> one was born", since that geographical locale is where one was "brought
> (by a female).
> Several times in the Bible, only the meaning of "father's descendants"
> seem to make sense, not any reference to a geographical locale of a
> birth. Leviticus 18: 9, 11 is referring to being born of one's father.
> Genesis 43: 7 and Genesis 48: 6 also seem to be referring to people,
> father's descendants, and not a geographical locale.
> MWLDT/"mowledeth" never means ancestors. The root YLD is referring to
> comes forth from an ancestor, namely "descendants", not to one's
> I myself see the primary meaning of MWLDT/"mowledeth", especially in the
> Patriarchal narratives, as being "the persons who have been brought forth,
> various women, from one's father", i.e. one's "father's descendants". The
> accent is on one's living brothers (including half-brothers, if they have
> the same
> father), but MWLDT also includes all the descendants of one's father.
> closest single word equivalent to that in English is "kindred", in its
> narrowest meaning.
> At Genesis 43: 7, Joseph desperately wanted to know about Judah's MWLDT,
> that is, Judah's father's descendants, with the accent being on Judah's
> brothers, including both full-brothers and half-brothers (by the same
> father). By
> pressing Judah to give a full account of Judah's full-brothers and
> half-brothers (all sons of the same father), Joseph quickly found out the
> one and only
> thing that Joseph really wanted to know: Joseph has a full-brother,
> who is alive and well.
> Rather than being an "aberration", Genesis 43: 7 in my view reflects the
> core original meaning of MWLDT/"mowledeth", namely "father's
> Jim Stinehart
> Evanston, Illinois
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