[b-hebrew] Replaying

pporta at oham.net pporta at oham.net
Wed Dec 12 04:15:06 EST 2007


> Hi Pere,
>
> Personally, I think you are wrong and I have indeed raised a linguistic
> argument against his assertion. Practitioners of more "formal"
> linguistic persuasion would even have more to say than what I've outlined.
>
> Gender-marking indexes an *attribute* of the referent, not the referent
> itself, whether that be the head noun in the case of an adjective, or
> the referent of the noun in the case of the noun (I'm leaving aside the
> issue of non-semantic gender-marking here as it's a side issue). That
> is, it does not refer to the "bearer" or "thing" itself unlike
> person-marking. I repeat: gender-marking is not person-marking!

________________

I may agree with you in a general way.

Indeed, while a final -T may refer both to male ("amarta" Jr 45:3) and 
female ("amart" 2Sa 6:22) second person singular...what about such words as 
"YFR:)FH", she feared (Jr 3:8), where final -H
is both marker of gender and of person?
Is it something merely
coincidental, a hazardous or chancy case?

Pere Porta




>
> Regards,
>
> David Kummerow.
>
>
>
>>> The problem with the statement is that it assumes that the
>>> gender-marking of the adjective and noun is in fact person-marking
>>> (speech-participant marking), here third-person. That's why he says
>>> "-AH refers to the *feminine bearer* of the attribute" and "-AH refers
>>> to *the thing itself*."
>>
>> __________
>>
>> David,
>>
>> I think Isaac is right when he says
>> "-AH
>>> refers to the *feminine bearer* of the attribute" and "-AH refers to
>>> *the thing itself*."
>>
>> In Ec 9:16 we find "tovAH", (female) good (adjective, feminine form),
>> and in Nm 24:13 we find "tovAH", welfare, goodness (substantive feminine)
>>
>> I think nothing can be raised against his assertion.
>>
>> Pere Porta
>> Barcelona (Catalonia, Spain)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Even more bizarre and illogical is his example of what has
>>> traditionally been seen to be gender-marking is in fact second-person
>>> marking:
>>>
>>> "The counterpart to MAR, 'mister' is MAR-AT, where -AT is surely the
>>> personal pronoun AT, 'you'."
>>>
>>> These assertions rest on no linguistic foundation whatsoever and are
>>> able to be uttered only because of naiveness in relation to the
>>> fundamentals and basics of general linguistics. No linguist would give
>>> assent to them.
>>>
>>> Rather, gender-marking on nouns and adjectives is an indexical or
>>> agreement coding strategy which indexes a semantic dependency of that
>>> indicated by the morpheme in question. In this sense, then, I take it
>>> that gender-marking "refers", but this issue is actually theoretically
>>> divisive, so not everyone will agree with this statement. But
>>> gender-marking on nouns and adjectives is not to be equated and
>>> collapsed with person-marking!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> David Kummerow.
>>>
>>>
>>>> David,
>>>>
>>>> I'm not Isaac's advocate, but I ask you: what  do you find to be
>>>> wrong or mistaken in this statement of his?:
>>>>
>>>> "4. In the adjective TOBAH, 'good', -AH refers to the feminine bearer
>>>> of
>>>> the attribute, but in the noun TOBAH, 'favor, goodness', -AH refers to
>>>> the thing itself."
>>>>
>>>> Best regards from
>>>>
>>>> Pere Porta
>>>> Barcelona (Catalonia, Spain)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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