[b-hebrew] Dying, you will die Gen 2:17

Harold Holmyard hholmyard3 at earthlink.net
Tue Apr 10 21:47:00 EDT 2007


Shoshanna Walker wrote:
> Hello????  BY WHAT RIGHT are you quoting Romans to explain OUR Torah?
>
> What does it mean "God had created Adam with a perfect human life, 
> but without the life of God in him"?  Nothing!  The statement is 
> complete theological and other, nonsense!
>   

HH: Before you generalize too much, you should know that Christians 
sometimes disagree with one another, as do Jewish scholars. There are 
many Christians who believe that Adam initially had two kinds of 
righteousness:  a passive righteousness because he had never sinned and 
an active righteousness because he was in relation with God. God had 
created him very good, and there was nothing breaking his union with 
God. Some believe, indeed, that his sin broke that union he had with 
God, because sin separated him from God, who is life. That separation 
contributed to his death:

Is. 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins 
have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Psa. 104:29 When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take 
away their breath, they die and return to the dust.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard
> "The tree of life was the source of the eternal life of God for man." 
> Who said that?  You?  G-d did not say that.
>
> "Even though Adam had a sinless human life which was not dying, to 
> fulfill God's plan he still needed the life of God, which is what the 
> Messiah restored our access to." - Well, DUH - everyone needs "the 
> life of G-d".
>
> When did we lose it?  When did the "Messiah restore our access" to 
> it???  What "Messiah"? What access are you talking about?  When did 
> Adam NOT have the life of G-d?  WHEN DO ANY ONE OF US HAVE LIFE 
> WITHOUT G-D?  Did you ever think you could EVEN MOVE YOUR LITTLE 
> FINGER WITHOUT G-D GIVING YOU THE POWER/LIFE TO DO SO?  WOULD YOU 
> WAKE UP IN THE MORNING ALIVE WITHOUT G-D GIVING YOU LIFE?
>
> Are you really that arrogant? Do you really know what you are alleging?
>
> Is that your own gobbeldygook? By what authority do you proclaim such 
> meaningless nonsense to a list which is SUPPOSED to be above 
> religious doctrine, even though it is SUPPOSEDLY about OUR TORAH!? 
> Which only we JEWS have all the tools to know it?  Not to be 
> obnoxious, you are welcome to try to understand it, but not if you 
> think you know better than us, ie; if you see your idolotrous man-G-d 
> Jesus everywhere in Torah - as this was never G-d's teaching to US - 
> you know, the People to whom He gave it to by Divine revelation, only 
> someone's desire to start a new religion, but they couldn't fool 
> everyone, after all.
>
> The Torah was G-d's revelation to US - THE ISRAELITES - THE JEWS! - 
> not to YOU!  We had to work HARD for it. So if you want to understand 
> it, by all means use Hebrew linguistics, BUT ASK US ALSO and know 
> that linguistics is just touching the surface!
>
> I have been quiet for a very long time on this list - months - and I 
> have not promoted Jewish doctrine, as I have been admonished over and 
> over again, not to, but until I am removed and banned by the owners 
> in case they have an anti-Jewish agenda and are offended by me, I 
> will not cease and desist from defending MY Torah, AGAINST YOUR FALSE 
> NON-JEWISH DOCTRINE - since no one else on this list seems to care - 
> from those of you "strangers" who would defame it and attempt to 
> steal it from us and "own" it for yourselves!
>
> Yes, that is exactly what you are attempting to do!
>
> Do do you now understand why our Sages proclaimed mourning and 
> fasting when our written Torah was forced into translation into 
> Greek, and why G-d, in His unbounded WISDOM, gave most of the Torah 
> ORALLY - to be handed down generation after generation only to the 
> most worthy of our leaders - until it had to be written down because 
> of the conquerers of our land who dispersed us, and we HAVE A RECORD 
> OF EACH AND EVERY PERSON GENERATION TO GENERATION who, by virtue of 
> their worthiness was our leader, and transmitted Torah + Oral Torah 
> TO US - not you - so that you could never have access AT LEAST TO 
> THIS, TO THE HEART AND SOUL AND HIDDEN DEPTHS OF TORAH, to 
> mistranslate, to misconstrue, to attempt to take it away from us and 
> to attempt to OWN IT FOR YOURSELVES FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL AND 
> RELIGIONS AGENDAS - as you attempted to do with our WRITTEN TORAH!
>
> A little respect PLEASE!
>
> OK, now you can all yell at me, I have had 8 days (diaspora 
> temporarily for now) of observing Pesach that fortified me - that 
> renews my liberation from the spiritual bondage which you attempt to 
> impose on me and us Jews always in every generation, by trying to 
> steal MY TORAH away from me! I am strong now!  Bring it on!
>
> Shoshanna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
> Shoshanna
>
>
>
> [Steve Miller] I think your question is good. In answering it, we know that
> death did not come until Adam ate from the tree of knowledge. (Rom
> 5:12,15,17). God had created Adam with a perfect human life, but without the
> life of God in him. This is similar to the state of the righteous gentiles
> who will compose the restored nations in the new heaven and new earth. (Matt
> 26:31-46; Rev 21:3-4; 22:2)
> The tree of life was the source of the eternal life of God for man. Even
> though Adam had a sinless human life which was not dying, to fulfill God's
> plan he still needed the life of God, which is what the Messiah restored our
> access to.
>
>   
>> save ourselves, and God wants us totally reliant on Him.
>>      It is also commonly taught that their sin ruptured their relationship
>> with God.  How can we claim that?  There is not one reference of Adam or
>> Eve
>> communicating to God before sin. And there is no picture of worship
>> either.
>> The relationship actually seems pretty bland.
>>     
>
> [Steve Miller] You can get the idea of the sweet fellowship they had with
> God before the fall by God bringing before Adam all the animals He had
> created, and letting Adam name them. Also, God coming to fellowship with
> them in the cool of the day.
>
>   
>>     I know this would be drifting away from Biblical Hebrew slightly, but
>> would anyone like to discuss this or any other related garden topics?
>>     
>
> Sure. Email me off-list. Try not to write too long though. Thanks.
>
> -Steve Miller
> Detroit
> www.voiceInWilderness.info
>
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