[b-hebrew] b-hebrew Digest-angels

Shoshanna Walker rosewalk at concentric.net
Tue Sep 12 16:48:15 EDT 2006


Sujata, what is the contradiction?  Satan's job is to entice people 
to disobey G-d.  In Joshua's case, he did it without asking 
permission, in Job's case he asked permission.  According to Job, I 
thought he needed to ask permission, according to this account re 
Joshua, I now conclude that he doesn't have to ask permission.  There 
are many things we will never learn from the written text alone - 
especially metaphysics, how exactly the world was created, the 
spiritual worlds and the beings that exist in them, how they operate, 
etc.

I don't know what interpreters do.  I know that chazal drew on our 
Oral Torah and oral tradition - you know, the information and history 
that was passed down through the generations - to understand deeper 
than the mere words.  In this context, that is what they understood.

Shoshanna




Do interpreters also rewrite? Zech 3:2 says YHWH, how does that 
become "an angel of God" ?
 
   You say  in your Sep 5 post:
   "
   And Satan doesn't have free will beyond that which G-d granted him 
in this case - ok you can torment him - under certain conditions. "
 
   Today you say:
   His job is to entice people to sin, apparently he was given free reign to
entice anyone he wants.

   Could you please clarify?
 
   Best,
Sujata

er <rosewalk at concentric.net> wrote:
   The correct translation is entice, not incite.

Maybe you don't read everything that I send, I already explained,
that is precisely Satan's job. He is, as usual, just doing his job.
His job is to ENTICE people to disobedience against G-d, so that they
can exercise their ability of choice between "good" and "evil" ie;
obedience or disobedience to G-d.

Zecharia 3:2 poses no contradiction. Chazal's understanding is that
this is an angel of G-d scolding Satan for harassing Joshua, and
telling Satan that G-d should denounce him. Even if it is not an
angel talking to Satan, it still doesn't contradict his job. His job
is to entice people to sin, apparently he was given free reign to
entice anyone he wants.

Shoshanna



1 chron 21:1,8
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel
8 Then David said to God, "I have sinned greatly by doing this.
Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a
very foolish thing."

Have any other angels risen against Israel? This particular
"rising up against Israel" resulted in David "sinning greatly". Has
any other angel's action caused a man to sin?

Zech 3:2
Satan is rebuked by God. Obviously God wouldnt rebuke him for what
He himself had commanded him to do, so satan here should have done
something that God did not want him to do. Are there examples of God
rebuking any other angel?

Best,
Sujata

Shoshanna Walker wrote:

I don't see that angels have authority - they do G-d's bidding - just
as Satan did with Job, despite Harold's claim. If you read the text,
it is clear that Satan twice asked G-d's permission to test Job, and
got the permission, with conditions, which Satan followed. No
rebellion, no doing anything without G-d's permission, no authority
to do anything without G-d's permission.


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