[b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25

Lisbeth S. Fried lizfried at umich.edu
Wed Sep 6 09:15:39 EDT 2006


Dear Yigal, 
I agree completely of course, but I was playing the game, to see what would
happen if we take the numbers seriously. I assume that the numbers are
composed to fit the template and really refer to Antiochus IV.
Liz Fried

> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Yigal Levin
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 2:59 AM
> To: b-hebrew
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25
> 
> Liz and all,
> 
> We are forgetting the fact that 7 is a typological "magic number" in the
> Tanakh and in later Judaism, and likewise its multiples. Assuming that the
> various sets of sevens refer to real dates is expecting too much of the
> text. Also, assuming that Daniel was "really" written after the events
that
> he "prophecises", that is, after the fall of both Babylon and Persia, any
> attempt to "break his code" is only guesswork, since we do not have a full
> account of the events of the 4-2 centuries, and we certainly don't know
what
> events would have seemed very important to whatever group the author of
> Daniel belonged to.
> 
> 
> Yigal Levin
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried at umich.edu>
> To: "'B-Hebrew'" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 5:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25
> 
> 
> > Dear All,
> > First, from the utterance of the word regarding the rebuilding of
> > Jerusalem
> > to the coming of an anointed prince is 7 weeks, i.e., 49 years. The word
> > is
> > Jeremiah's, and that was probably uttered at the time of the first
> > deportation, so let's say it was uttered in 586, so we have 537 for the
> > coming of an anointed prince. So, that has to be either Cyrus, or
Jeshua,
> > or
> > Zerubbabel. I'm betting it's Jeshua, since he would have been the only
one
> > actually physically anointed.
> > Now,
> > After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall
have
> > nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the
> > city
> > and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there
> > shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
> > If we are counting a real 62 weeks from the previous, a real, 434 years,
> > then it comes to about 104. The anointed one is the high priest, he
shall
> > be
> > cut off and left with nothing. John Hyrcanus, I suppose. The troops
('am)
> > of
> > the ruler (nagid)
> > shall destroy the city. This refers to a foreign ruler, but I have to
read
> > up on what happened then after the death of John Hyrcanus.
> > But I have always assumed that these aren't reliable numbers, that the
> > chronology was off, and that the foreign ruler is Antiochus IV, and the
> > anointed prince who was cut off was Onias III.
> > Liz Fried
> >
> >> > From: Lisbeth S. Fried Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:33 PM
> >> >
> >> > How does it make clear that it is not the high priest?
> >>
> >> [Steve Miller] Because nageed refers to kings, not priests. The high
> > priest
> >> is called nageed only as ruler over specific things, i.e. over certain
> >> Levites, or over the house of God. He is never called an unqualified
> > nageed.
> >> Just as I am ruler over my house and over a few people at work, but I
> > would
> >> not be called a ruler.
> >>
> >> > That is who the leader was in the second temple period.
> >> [Steve Miller] He may have been acting as the leader, as Jehoida did,
but
> > he
> >> was not anointed to be the leader. If he was high priest, he was
anointed
> > to
> >> be high priest.
> >>
> >> > How does the time constraint not work?
> >> [Steve Miller] He needed to appear either 7 weeks (49 years) or 62
weeks
> >> (434 years) or 69 weeks (483 years) after the word to restore and
rebuild
> >> Jerusalem.
> >> -Steve Miller
> >> Detroit
> >> www.voiceinwilderness.info
> >>
> >> >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: Steve Miller [mailto:smille10 at sbcglobal.net]
> >> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 5:45 PM
> >> > > To: 'Lisbeth S. Fried'; 'B-Hebrew'
> >> > > Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25
> >> > >
> >> > > "maschiach" can refer to a high priest, but "maschiach nageed"
makes
> > it
> >> > > clear that this is not a Levitical priest. Also, the time
constraint
> >> > does
> >> > > not work as pointed out by Harold.
> >> > > -Steve
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> >> > > > bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lisbeth S. Fried
> >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:26 PM
> >> > > > To: 'B-Hebrew'
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Dear All,
> >> > > > You're forgetting the high priest, always the anointed leader of
> >> > > > his
> >> > > > people.
> >> > > > (e.g. Lev. 8:12).
> >> > > > It is probably Onias III or Simon II (the one described in Ben
> > Sira).
> >> > > > Simon
> >> > > > II is credited with restoring Jerusalem. Onias III is cut off and
> > has
> >> > > > nothing.
> >> > > > The troops destroying the sanctuary are those of Antiochus IV.
> >> > > > Liz Fried
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> >> > > > > bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Miller
> >> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:15 PM
> >> > > > > To: 'Yonah Mishael'; 'B-Hebrew'
> >> > > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 11:22
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > > > > From: Yonah Mishael Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Translating נגיד as "prince" has also led to Christians
> >> > translating
> >> > > > > > 9:25 of Daniel as "Messiah the Prince," although משיח נגיד
> >> > > > > > would
> >> > maybe
> >> > > > > > better be understood as "an anointed ruler" (indefinite) or
"an
> >> > > > > > exalted anointed one" (if נגיד be understood as the adjective
> >> > > > > > modifying משיח).
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > What do you make of this?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Yonah
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > Yes, Yonah, I agree with you on the meaning of nageed as ruler.
> >> > > > > In
> >> > Dan.
> >> > > > > 9:25, who could "mashiach nageed" refer to? The words "mashiach
> >> > nageed"
> >> > > > > could refer to Cyrus, or an anointed leader of Israel, or to
the
> >> > > > promised
> >> > > > > Messiah. The verse says that "mashiach nageed" is to come
either
> > 49
> >> > yrs
> >> > > > or
> >> > > > > 693 years after the word to restore and build Jerusalem. This
> >> > couldn't
> >> > > > be
> >> > > > > Cyrus because the word to restore and build Jerusalem was given
> >> > > > > by
> >> > Cyrus
> >> > > > > (and later Persian kings). Neither was there an outstanding
> > anointed
> >> > > > ruler
> >> > > > > of Israel meeting this time criteria. Thus "maschiach nageed"
in
> >> > > > Dan.9:25
> >> > > > > must mean the Messiah.
> >> > > > > -Steve Miller
> >> > > > > Detroit
> >> > > > > www.voiceinwilderness.info
> >>
> >>
> >>
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