[b-hebrew] Daniel

Shoshanna Walker rosewalk at concentric.net
Mon Sep 4 16:03:51 EDT 2006


"Even if an angel of G-d did give the vision to Daniel, it still came 
from G-d"  Obviously everything comes from G-d.  But if it came from 
an intermediary, it didn't come directly from G-d.  And what do you 
mean, that "otherwise the vision would be from an angel of Satan"? 
There is only G-d, and Satan is only another angel, Satan doesn't 
have angels working under him.  There are many many angels, an angel 
is a servant of G-d, and exists only to do a particular job, when its 
job is done, it ceases to exist - even Satan will no longer have a 
job to do one day.

I don't see that Daniel gave G-d the credit specifically for giving 
him this information, to me it reads as if Daniel was praising and 
thanking G-d in general - the way we do every day when we pray.

I'm still going to go with our Torah's opinion, that Daniel didn't 
get his information directly from G-d, but from angels.

Shoshanna





Dear Shoshanna,

Please accept my apologies for the late reply.

It is quite clear from the text that Daniel was given the dream of
Nebuchadnezzar and its interpretation by God. The text clearly indicates
that there was no intermediary, i.e. angel(s). In fact, Daniel clearly goes
out of his way to avoid any hint that he was responsible. He clearly gave
God the credit. Furthermore, for the sake of argument, even if an angel of
God did give the vision to Daniel, it still came from God. Otherwise, what
you have is that the vision would be from an angel of Satan. I do not think
that is what you are claiming and Daniel is clearly indicating that the
vision was given by God; and that the wise-men and astrologers and such were
not able to do it. They could not since no one is able to declare the dream
and the interpretation. Daniel, with God's intervention and as Daniel
claimed, was able to do both.

Furthermore, read Leon J. Wood, The Prophets of Israel, Grand Rapids, Baker
book House Company, 1979. It is dated since Dr. Wood died in 1977 from
cancer, but I do not think that there has been any book like it since. The
Hebrew list will probably correct me if I am wrong.

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shoshanna Walker" <rosewalk at concentric.net>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel


Still the vision could have come from an angel - it doesn't say it
came directly from G-d, neither does Daniel claim it

Shoshanna



Dear Shoshanna,

I am sure that what you have said regarding Daniel not receiving visions
directly from God would be incorrect since it clearly says in Daniel
2:19-23,

    19 - "Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then
Daniel blessed the God of heaven. Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the
name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: and he changeth
the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he
giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
he revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness,
and light dwelleth with him. I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my
fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now
what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king's
matter."

Thus, Daniel himself says that he received the vision from God. The other
visions that Daniel received had the interpretation given by an angel to
God.

Now, do I accept what Scripture says or do I follow what the rabbi's have
said? Obviously, the Sanhedrin was not in operation in Babylon.

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III





----- Original Message -----
From: "Shoshanna Walker" <rosewalk at concentric.net>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel


It don't think he was "demoted", because he's in Vilna Gaon's list of
the 48 male prophets of Israel (prophet number 44) - and apparently
there was some disagreement.

Rashi doesn't include him in his list, and I posted where the Talmud
says he was not a prophet.

I think that the best,  most common sense  and non-religious reason
why he would not be considered a prophet, is because he didn't
receive his visions directly from G-d.

Very simple.  Whether he was rejected by Sanhedrin, or even APPLIED
to Sanhedrin, I don't know - the literature is too vast for me to
figure out where to look it up.

But now I'm very curious.

Shoshanna




As for why Daniel was/is not considered a prophet, there are more than
one reasons given, the most important I heard was because he was a
court official in an enslaving kingdom. Peterö's suggestion that he
was "demoted" as a reaction to Christian citing of his prophecies
probably also played a part.
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