[b-hebrew] A diversion from 1 sam 1:28 and that infinitive (for Dave)
davidfentonism at aim.com
davidfentonism at aim.com
Tue Oct 31 19:01:14 EST 2006
DAVE SAID: Shalom Chris, the difficulty for me with your analysis is that it is the product of human reason. It's not only that I do not consider your view to be close to the truth but also that it seeks to explain (away) Scripture and tradition. Moreover, I don't look to the conduct of people and nations to verify Scripture but rather they are verified by Scripture. The same thing for science. CHRIS REPLIES: Well Dave, like it or not, God created Reason and He created Humans! On the nations clause I really think you ought to read it a second time. Comparisons you know don't invalidate God's words. DAVE REPLIES: Relying upon Scriptures here, I defer to the impetus which led Solomon to ask of HaShem an understanding heart to judge G-d’s people (1 Kings 3:7-12) and discern what is right. This attitude was pleasing to the L-RD. Again, Job (8:8-10) declares he ‘knows nothing’ as he was born only yesterday and because all our days on earth are a shadow. Psalm 19:7 declares, “The law of HaShem is perfect, converting the soul. The testimony of HaShem is sure, making wise the simple.” To fear HaShem is the beginning of wisdom and do His commandments is to have good understanding (Psalm 111:10). With respect to your point about the comparison’s of nations, I agree. I think where I did not agree was with the insufficiency, in my view, of those comparisons. ================================================ DAVE SAID: I am not Jewish either but I am a believer in Messiah Yeshua and His testimony. I suspect we differ in that you think GEEzus did away with Torah (i.e., instructions of G-d) and I read accept Yeshua at His word when He said He came to fulfill the Law and not set it aside. CHRIS REPLIES: Assumptions are Human reasonigs Dave (your'e guilty)!!!!!!!! I KNOW that Jesus did not do away with the Law, and besides, you had better clarify which category of Law - Civil, Religious or Sacrificial. Or do you mean by 'Law' - all three categories together? DAVE REPLIES: Relying upon Scriptures here, I defer to the impetus which led Solomon to ask of HaShem an understanding heart to judge G-d’s people (1 Kings 3:7-12) and discern what is right. This attitude was pleasing to the L-RD. Again, Job (8:8-10) declares he ‘knows nothing’ as he was born only yesterday and because all our days on earth are a shadow. Psalm 19:7 declares that the law of HaShem is perfect, converting the soul and His testimony is sure, making wise the simple. In Psalm 119:98 we read that we are made wiser then our enemies through the commandments of G-d. I refute your claim that I assumed your position as it was you that implied some undefined significance to your statement: “G-d created Reason and He created Humans!” In the context of the discussion, there was nothing else for me to ‘assume’ from your comment. By “law” I meant the same category (ies) that Yeshua did when He said He came to fulfill the law, not destroy it (Mat 5:17). ================================================ DAVE SAID: Respecting your point that "experience" has shown you to 'test everything,' I would reiterate that experience cannot be my primary instruction but only insofar as it conforms to the Word of G-d. Where it diverts from that, I will have to go with what is unseen and/or the Scriptures of the Almighty. To your question about Scripture, non-Jews imagine all they need to know about the Scriptures are contained in the Authorized Version of the Bible but the Hebrews really had many other texts from which they were and are informed about righteous living (just as Yeshua and His Talmidim or "Apostles" did). The Greco-Roman interpretation(s) of Hebrew/Jewish Scriptures has led people away from the Saviour of history and not closer to him. CHRIS REPLIES: The word of God does not contain EVERY possible scenario of Human trajedy and experience, but Wisdom does -- and that comes from EXPERIENCE my friend. DAVE SAID ALSO :The Greco-Roman interpretation(s) of Hebrew/Jewish Scriptures has led people away from the Saviour of history and not closer to him CHRIS WOULD LIKE TO SAY: I thought like that once, until I learned through Bitter EXPERIENCE that this is a reactionary statement of bitterness preached in some circles with messianic verosity. But the truth is more gentle as bourne out by people like Corrie Ten Boom, Casper Ten Boom, Hans Polei and Mirjam de Hoop all from the Netherlands. (PS, they all used the equivalent of the KJV). DAVE REPLIES: If by the fallacious notion that G-d’s Word “does not contain every scenario of human tragedy” you mean that His Word does not contain the answer for every question or dilemma, then I will not agree. If you mean that not all readers accept His Word as having the answer for all their questions then I can see that—yes. Notwithstanding, with your contention that ‘wisdom derives from human experience’ I could not disagree more. The aforementioned verses of Scripture tell us where wisdom comes from. To say otherwise is to contradict the inspired Word of G-d. Moreover, I’m sorry about the “bitter experience” that steered you away from the Jewish context of the Bible to a Greco-Roman one but, again, personal experience is not the measure of the truth of this. Yeshua is Jewish, Yisra’El and the Jews are Semitic (not Hellenist-Roman), and the Bible was constructed squarely within that context and must be understood within that very same context. The Ten Booms & company may be your favorite examples of xian identity but mine are all found in the Scriptures (e.g., Yeshoshua/Joshua, David, Yeshayahu/Isaiah, et al.). ========================================================== More specifically about your query, concerning the infinitive absolute relative to the passage you reference (Lev 20:10), I would say I agree that it does appear to be a certainty and thus an infinitive absolute. I have not looked at this more closely but am offering an opinion based on the KJV reading of the verse as well as what you wrote in your original post on the question. Thanks for stimulating exchange! (Your'e Welcome Dave) DAVE REPLIES: BTW, my remarks about suspecting that Lev 20:20 is an example of an infinitive absolute is based upon my previous reply to you about the law and G-d’s mercy and the details therein which elaborated on how He can demand fulfillment of His law and still make a Way for His grace and mercy without voiding His law. That’s missing from this post but if you reference it you will see the parallels. Again, thanks for the interesting discussion. Shalom, Dave
Gal. 27-29: For as many as have had a tevilah into Moshiach have clothed yourselves with Moshiach. There is not Yehudi nor Yevani (Greek), there is not eved (servant) nor ben chorin (freedman), there is not zachar (male) nor nekevah (female), for you are all echad in Moshiach Yehoshua/Yeshua. And, if you belong to Moshiach (YESHAYAH 53:10), then you are of the ZERAH of Avraham Avinu, you are yoreshim (heirs) according to the havtachah (promise).
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To: b-hebrew at lists.Ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 1:54 PM
Subject: [b-hebrew] A diversion from 1 sam 1:28 and that infinitive (for Dave)
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