[b-hebrew] misquote

kgraham0938 at comcast.net kgraham0938 at comcast.net
Thu Oct 5 10:21:25 EDT 2006


whoops misquoted you.  You said "They came into being naked." But still the same question, were'nt they already naked?


--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: kgraham0938 at comcast.net 

> Hey thanks for the reply, it has always been my understanding that hayah did 
> correspond to the 'b verb' in english. Like for instance Waltke & O'Conner says 
> on pg 72. 
> 
> In a verbless (or nominal) clause there is no verbal marker of predication. 
> Hebrwe, like many other languages, including Latin and Classical Greek, may 
> predicate an adjective or noun directly, without a copula (i.e some form of 
> hayah, which corresponds to English 'to be'). 
> 
> So that is how I have always seen it, not to be say this is a trump card or 
> anything but just my understanding of it and where it came from. And with 
> regards to Gen 2:25 when you said "they came into a state of being naked." 
> Were'nt they already naked? It does not seems to me that they were becoming 
> nake but already naked. Another example I'd like to get your opinion on is 2 
> Chr 20:25. 
> 
> vayih:yw yamiym $:lo$h boz:ziym , it looks to me that the verb is functioning 
> more like a past progressive 'were plundering.' What are your thoughts? 
> 
> -- 
> Kelton Graham 
> KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net 
> 
> -------------- Original message -------------- 
> From: "B. M. Rocine" 
> 
> > Dear Kelton, 
> > 
> > Not to answer for Peter, but to support him: 
> > 
> > I think clauses constructed with the verbal root HYH are not equivalent 
> > to noun sentences (a.k.a. verbless clause). In other words, I do not 
> > think of HYH as a copula. Rather it means refers essentially to a 
> > happening. 
> > 
> > On the other hand, we can't force a particular wooden translation to 
> > work in every case of HYH. Sometimes HYH can even refer to someone 
> > "coming along" as in movement to a place. 
> > 
> > Genesis 2:25 in particular would be something like this: "They came 
> > into being naked." 
> > 
> > Hoping to help. 
> > 
> > Shalom, 
> > Bryan 
> > 
> > kgraham0938 at comcast.net wrote: 
> > > Hello Peter, 
> > > 
> > > I am curious about your statement about WAYIH:YW = become as opposed to 
> > 'were.' What do you think is the difference btw Judges 16:30 and Genesis 2:25? 
> > > 
> > > WAYIH:YW $N"HEM `RWMMIYM.... would you translate this as "They became 
> > naked.." or am I misreading your point? Thanks 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Kelton Graham 
> > > KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net 
> > > 
> > > -------------- Original message -------------- 
> > > From: Peter Kirk 
> > > 
> > >> On 03/10/2006 18:08, Chris and Nel wrote: 
> > >>> ... I am so used to 
> > >>> reading sentences without "to be " in them that I still can not fathom its 
> > >>> purpose here, considering that without it I actually arrived at the 
> correct 
> > >>> translation without looking at the English. 
> > >>> 
> > >>> Now can someone be kind enough pleeeease..... to relieve me of my making a 
> > >>> fool of 
> > >>> myself on this board? 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >> The distinction may be that sentences in which "to be" is omitted are 
> > >> usually (always?) stative, indicating a continuing state, like English 
> > >> "be", whereas those starting with WAYHIY, and here with its plural form 
> > >> WAYIHYUW, indicate actions, like English "became". Thus a literal 
> > >> translation would be "And the dead... became more than the dead...". The 
> > >> meaning is of course "More people died... than...", an action. A 
> > >> translation like Kelton's "Those who were dead ... *were* many, more 
> > >> than..." is misleading because it suggests a state, a count of bodies 
> > >> already dead. But in fact we have an action here, a large number of 
> > >> people dying. (Dare I suggest a prototype of today's suicide bombers, 
> > >> except here we have an Israelite killing Gentiles in Gaza?) 
> > >> 
> > 
> > -- 
> > B. M. Rocine 
> > Living Word Church 
> > 6101 Court St. Rd. 
> > Syracuse, NY 13026 
> > (W): 315.437.6744 
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