[b-hebrew] accent mark question Ps 45:7 and Dagesh in Isaiah 8:11

kgraham0938 at comcast.net kgraham0938 at comcast.net
Mon Oct 31 15:29:47 EST 2005


@yitzhak:

thanks for your answer, I totally forgot about the dehi and the fact that Psalms uses different accent markings, I have not been in the Psalms in a long time.  Let me ask you something, giving the munah, one cannot translate this as "God, is your throne for ever and ever."

In otherwords the subject/predicate can't flip flop.  

And which do you think is stronger translation?

Your throne, O God...
vs
Your throne is God...

In regards to Isaiah 8:11, if this is a piel this would mean that bible works is in error, for they mark this as a qal imperfect 3 masculine singular.  I usually don't go against bible works, but in this case I can't see how they got there morphology.

--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> On 10/31/05, Kelton Graham wrote: 
> > My question is two fold in Psalm 45:7 K:S:`A:KA 
> > E:LOHIYM the tipha under the alef of ' E:LOHIYM does 
> > that represent a pause? 
> > 
> > So is it, "your throne, O God is forever and ever?" 
> > 
> > "Or can one get away with Your throne is God, forever and 
> > ever?" 
> 
> If the Massoretes got away with it, what prevents you from 
> getting away with it? 
> 
> In the book of Psalms a different system of division is at work. 
> The cantillation mark you are looking at is a D:xi (dehi) and it is 
> a Mishneh (ie, 3rd level of division, after a Qeisar and a Melekh). 
> A +ipxah is a Melekh and is found under the stressed syllable of 
> books other than Psalms, Job, and Proverbs, while a D:xi is found 
> always before the start of the word in the Psalms/Job/Proverbs 
> system regardless of stress. A cantillation mark called a +irxFh 
> (tirha) is shaped exactly the same way but is a conjunctive and 
> found under the stressed syllable. Anyway, the munah is still 
> conjunctive and the etnahta is still the greatest pause so this 
> verse is quite simple: The munach connects "(wlm" to "w(d" and 
> "ks)k" to ")lhym", and the dehi separates the ")lhm" from the 
> portion following it, until the etnahta. 
> 
> [ Your throne God ] [ forever ] 
> 
> Based on the context where God speaks his blessing to his 
> chosen king, such as in the next verse where "thus has God 
> anointed you." So it probably means: 
> 
> Your throne is God, eternal. 
> 
> That is: You are eternally supported by God. 
> 
> I note JPS translates: Thy throne given of God is for 
> ever and ever, so they add "given of" in the translation 
> so that the implication is clearer. 
> 
> > Second question is YISS:R"NIY in Isaiah 8:11, why is 
> > there a dagesh in the samech? 
> 
> Seems to me because it is a Piel. 
> 
> > And if this thing is imperfect why isn't there a dagesh in 
> > the yod? 
> 
> Seems to me the Massoretic signs imply it is not a Vav 
> conversive. It is a vav conjunctive only. So it says "God 
> said such to me with a strong hand and repeatedly 
> admonishes/pains me not to go the way of this people, 
> saying." 
> 
> Here I read the imperfect as an ongoing repeated action. 
> 
> According to the Hebrew Univ Bible/Isaiah: 
> Isaiah A has "wyhy kxzqt yd ysyrnw" 
> Miqraot Gdolot, Kennicott 150, and multiple manuscripts 
> in Kennicott/de Rossi/Ginsburg have "bxzqt" 
> Codex Karlsruhe 3 ("Reuchlinianus"), dated 1105, has 
> "wiysir"yniy" which appears to match Aquilas and 
> Theodotion from my limited understanding of the Greek 
> apparatus. Kennicott 30 has just "ysrny" before 
> correction. 
> 
> I don't know Greek so I won't try to analyze the LXX 
> comments beyond this but they seem apparently to point 
> to an etymology of "swr." 
> 
> Yitzhak Sapir 
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