[b-hebrew] Re: b-hebrew Digest, Vol 30, Issue 15

John Gray jgray at lfmp.com.au
Wed Jun 22 19:12:22 EDT 2005


Thankyou - John Gray
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <b-hebrew-request at lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 2:00 AM
Subject: b-hebrew Digest, Vol 30, Issue 15


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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Re:plurality & divinity (Bearpecs at aol.com)
>   2. Re: Help for visually impaired (christopher kimball)
>   3. shewa in imperative (Bearpecs at aol.com)
>   4. Zech 13:5 (Steve Miller)
>   5. Re: Zech 13:5 (George F Somsel)
>   6. Re: Zech 13:5 (Bearpecs at aol.com)
>   7. Re: Zech 13:5 (Yigal Levin)
>   8. Re: Zech 13:5 (George F Somsel)
>   9. Re: Zech 13:5 (Peter Kirk)
>  10. Re: Zech 13:5 (George F Somsel)
>  11. b-hebrew (ROY THOMAS)
>  12. Re: b-hebrew (Jim West)
>  13. Re: b-hebrew (George F Somsel)
>  14. FW: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity (YODAN)
>  15. Re: FW: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity (George F Somsel)
>  16. Re: FW: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity (Peter Kirk)
>  17. Re: Zech 13:5 (George F Somsel)
>  18. RE: FW: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity (Stoney Breyer)
>  19. Re: FW: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity (Bearpecs at aol.com)
>  20. Re: Zech 13:5 (Karl Randolph)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:15:28 EDT
> From: Bearpecs at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity
> To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <29.75a4ca55.2fe99720 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> In a message dated 6/21/2005 2:25:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jgray at lfmp.com.au writes:
>
> Is this  something which stikes others, as well as
> myself, a very novice scholar?
>
>
> It is striking, and there has been extensive discussion on the  topic.
> As always, start with the standard grammars (e.g. Gesenius, section 124) 
> and
> then go on to the standard references and commentaries, (e.g. Anchor Bible
> Dictionary, "Names of Gd in the OT", vol IV, esp. p.1006).
> Anyone have a citation for an article reviewing the literature?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: christopher kimball <mail at cvkimball.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Help for visually impaired
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>, b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20050621183708.99121.qmail at web303.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> The Unicode/XML Tanach at
>
> http://www.cvkimball.com/Tanach/Tanach.xml
>
> allows very large font sizes (up to 64 pt) to be displayed.  This may be 
> of help to the visually impaired.
>
>
> George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com> wrote:
> The question was raised recently regarding tools to help a visually
> impaired student use computer study tools such as Bible Works, Logos,
> etc. I just heard about a program which is supposed to be excellent for
> this purpose.
>
> http://www.nextup.com/TextAloud/
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> ___________
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:37:52 EDT
> From: Bearpecs at aol.com
> Subject: [b-hebrew] shewa in imperative
> To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <19b.36579a2a.2fe9d4a0 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> Gesenius (section 46d) says that "the first syllable of the sing. fem. and
> plur. masc. are usually to be pronounced with shewa mobile" (and then 
> gives
> exceptions).
>
> Juoun (section 49c [note 1]), however, says "The shewa is 'medium,'" which
> would mean that the first syllable is closed even though it makes a 
> following
> bgdkft rafe.
>
> I don't see any discussion in Waltke & O'Connor.
>
> Can someone tell me what the latest credible scholarly opionion is?
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:35:47 -0400
> From: "Steve Miller" <smille10 at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: [b-hebrew] Zech 13:5
> To: "B-Hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.Ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <01e901c576d3$195b0660$6900a8c0 at Dad>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Zech 13:5 but he will say, â?~I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the 
> ground,
> for a man sold me as a slave in my youth.â?T  (NASB)
>
> The phrase "a man sold me as a slave" is אָ×"ָם ×"Ö´×§Ö°× Ö·× Ö´×T.
> The verb is causitive, literally "caused me to buy", which I don't think 
> is
> reflected in "sold me as a slave".  To sell someone as a slave is not to
> cause them to buy.
> The only translation that retains the causitive meaning is KJV, which 
> says,
> "man taught me to keep cattle", but I don't think that is a causitive
> meaning of "buy", although it is causitive.
>
> Does "man" have to be the subject? Can it be the object? Could it be
> translated:
> for mankind He has made Me to purchase from My youth.
> or
> for mankind, they have caused Me to purchase from My youth. (treating the
> 3rd masculine singular as the indefinate pronoun as in 13:9.)
> or
> for mankind I have been made to purchase from My youth. (replacing
> indefinate pronoun with passive)
>
> thanks,
> -Steve Miller
> Detroit
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:24:59 -0400
> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 13:5
> To: smille10 at sbcglobal.net
> Cc: b-hebrew at lists.Ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20050621.232459.-620487.1.gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:35:47 -0400 "Steve Miller"
> <smille10 at sbcglobal.net> writes:
>> Zech 13:5 but he will say, 'I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of
>> the ground,
>> for a man sold me as a slave in my youth.'  (NASB)
>>
>> The phrase "a man sold me as a slave" is ?????
>> ?????????.
>> The verb is causitive, literally "caused me to buy", which I don't
>> think is
>> reflected in "sold me as a slave".  To sell someone as a slave is
>> not to
>> cause them to buy.
>> The only translation that retains the causitive meaning is KJV,
>> which says,
>> "man taught me to keep cattle", but I don't think that is a
>> causitive
>> meaning of "buy", although it is causitive.
>>
>> Does "man" have to be the subject? Can it be the object? Could it be
>> translated:
>> for mankind He has made Me to purchase from My youth.
>> or
>> for mankind, they have caused Me to purchase from My youth.
>> (treating the
>> 3rd masculine singular as the indefinate pronoun as in 13:9.)
>> or
>> for mankind I have been made to purchase from My youth. (replacing
>> indefinate pronoun with passive)
>>
>> thanks,
>> -Steve Miller
>> Detroit
> _______________________________________________
>
> TEXT:
>
> W:)fMaR Lo) NfBiY) )fNoKiY )iY$_(oB"D )a:DfMfH )fNoKiY K.iY )fDfM
> HiQ:N"NiY MiN.:(W.RfY
>
> HALOT notes that the text is uncertain here and gives a conjectural
> reading of )fDfM HiQ:NaNiY, but I don't think that solves your problem.
> I think your problem is more in trying to import concepts from English
> into Hebrew.  Perhaps changing the English equivalent slightly will
> clarify the matter.  QNH does not simply mean "buy" but "acquire" and
> thus the hiphil would be "cause to acquire."  BDB gives "caused (one) to
> purchase me ."
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> ___________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:15:17 EDT
> From: Bearpecs at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 13:5
> To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <1e0.3ec329e4.2fea3fd5 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>
> In a message dated 6/21/2005 10:28:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> smille10 at sbcglobal.net writes:
>
> Zech  13:5 but he will say, â?~I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the 
> ground,
> for  a man sold me as a slave in my youth.â?T  (NASB)
>
>
> NJPS translates:  "and he will declare, 'I am not a "prophet"; I am a 
> tiller
> of the soil; you see, I was plied with the red stuff from my youth on.'  "
> In the footnotes, it clarifies that by saying "tiller of the soil", the
> self-denying prophet refers to Noah, who became drunk (Gen 9:20-12).  NJPS
> understands 'adam as 'adom, red, and so the phrase is "caused me to 
> acquire red
> [wine]", meaning that he was a drunkard.  In other words, although he 
> appeared
> to prophesy, it was just the ranting of drunkeness.  In the next  verse he
> explains that the welts on his back were not received from flagellation 
> in order
> to stimulate ecstatic prophesy but rather beatings he received when he 
> was
> drunk and rowdy at parties.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:12:12 +0200
> From: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 13:5
> To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <005a01c57705$f0417290$6f664684 at xp>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> The verb QNH often means "to make" or "to create" (cf. Gen. 14:22). Might 
> it
> not mean, "I am no prophet, for I was made a man from my youth", or "for
> [God] created me a man from youth".
>
> Yigal
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Miller" <smille10 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "B-Hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 4:35 AM
> Subject: [b-hebrew] Zech 13:5
>
>
>> Zech 13:5 but he will say, â?~I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the
> ground,
>> for a man sold me as a slave in my youth.â?T  (NASB)
>>
>> The phrase "a man sold me as a slave" is אָ×"ָם ×"Ö´×§Ö°× Ö·× Ö´×T.
>> The verb is causitive, literally "caused me to buy", which I don't think
> is
>> reflected in "sold me as a slave".  To sell someone as a slave is not to
>> cause them to buy.
>> The only translation that retains the causitive meaning is KJV, which
> says,
>> "man taught me to keep cattle", but I don't think that is a causitive
>> meaning of "buy", although it is causitive.
>>
>> Does "man" have to be the subject? Can it be the object? Could it be
>> translated:
>> for mankind He has made Me to purchase from My youth.
>> or
>> for mankind, they have caused Me to purchase from My youth. (treating the
>> 3rd masculine singular as the indefinate pronoun as in 13:9.)
>> or
>> for mankind I have been made to purchase from My youth. (replacing
>> indefinate pronoun with passive)
>>
>> thanks,
>> -Steve Miller
>> Detroit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> b-hebrew mailing list
>> b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:53:31 -0400
> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 13:5
> To: leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il
> Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20050622.075331.-868427.0.gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:12:12 +0200 "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il>
> writes:
>> The verb QNH often means "to make" or "to create" (cf. Gen. 14:22).
>> Might it
>> not mean, "I am no prophet, for I was made a man from my youth", or
>> "for
>> [God] created me a man from youth".
>>
>> Yigal
> ___________________
>
> What would that mean?  It would seem that KiY is a causal particle.  Is
> see no connection between "I am a farmer" and "for God created me a man
> from my youth."
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> ___________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:23:38 +0100
> From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk at qaya.org>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 13:5
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <42B9584A.7070803 at qaya.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> On 22/06/2005 12:53, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:12:12 +0200 "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il>
>>writes:
>>
>>
>>>The verb QNH often means "to make" or "to create" (cf. Gen. 14:22).
>>>Might it
>>>not mean, "I am no prophet, for I was made a man from my youth", or
>>>"for
>>>[God] created me a man from youth".
>>>
>>>Yigal
>>>
>>>
>>___________________
>>
>>What would that mean?  It would seem that KiY is a causal particle.  Is
>>see no connection between "I am a farmer" and "for God created me a man
>>from my youth."
>>
>>
>>
> Coul 'adam be used here in the sense of "common person", as (according
> to many) in Psalm 49:3, 62:10? In this case the speaker could be
> claiming that he is a common peasant who never had the chance to become
> someone special like a prophet.
>
> But this still doesn't explain the hiphil of QNH, otherwise unattested.
> I did wonder if this could be a denominative from QNH = cane, so meaning
> that "a man had me beaten with canes", leading into verse 6.
>
> -- 
> Peter Kirk
> peter at qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk at qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/25 - Release Date: 21/06/2005
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:43:13 -0400
> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 13:5
> To: peterkirk at qaya.org
> Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20050622.084313.-558179.2.gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:23:38 +0100 Peter Kirk <peterkirk at qaya.org>
> writes:
>> On 22/06/2005 12:53, George F Somsel wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:12:12 +0200 "Yigal Levin"
>> <leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il>
>> >writes:
>> >
>> >
>> >>The verb QNH often means "to make" or "to create" (cf. Gen.
>> 14:22).
>> >>Might it
>> >>not mean, "I am no prophet, for I was made a man from my youth",
>> or
>> >>"for
>> >>[God] created me a man from youth".
>> >>
>> >>Yigal
>> >>
>> >>
>> >___________________
>> >
>> >What would that mean?  It would seem that KiY is a causal particle.
>>  Is
>> >see no connection between "I am a farmer" and "for God created me a
>> man
>> >from my youth."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> Coul 'adam be used here in the sense of "common person", as
>> (according
>> to many) in Psalm 49:3, 62:10? In this case the speaker could be
>> claiming that he is a common peasant who never had the chance to
>> become
>> someone special like a prophet.
>>
>> But this still doesn't explain the hiphil of QNH, otherwise
>> unattested.
>> I did wonder if this could be a denominative from QNH = cane, so
>> meaning
>> that "a man had me beaten with canes", leading into verse 6.
>>
>> -- 
>> Peter Kirk
>> peter at qaya.org (personal)
>> peterkirk at qaya.org (work)
>> http://www.qaya.org/
> ________________
>
> In that case it would anticipate the next verse and would seem somewhat
> out of place.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> ___________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:03:17 -0500
> From: ROY THOMAS <roythomas at cwjamaica.com>
> Subject: [b-hebrew] b-hebrew
> To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <42B02715.9090905 at cwjamaica.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
> Dear Hebrew scholars,
> I  am just a beginner. I  want to know and learn hebrew.
> what  would  be  the best   translation of  " midbar"?
> Thanks.
> Roy  Thomas.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:18:31 -0400
> From: Jim West <jwest at highland.net>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] b-hebrew
> To: ROY THOMAS <roythomas at cwjamaica.com>, b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <42B96527.9000804 at highland.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8
>
> Wilderness, wasteland, desert, steppe, pasturage  The choice of words
> used to translate depends completely on the context.  Words have usage,
> not meaning.  Apart from some specific context a word means nothing.
> Take, for example, the word "light".  What does it mean?  Well, it can
> be used to describe something "not heavy" or it can be used to describe
> "illumination" or "the absence of darkness".  Only context will tell you
> which it is.
>
> Best
>
> Jim
>
> ROY THOMAS wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear Hebrew scholars,
>> I  am just a beginner. I  want to know and learn hebrew.
>> what  would  be  the best   translation of  " midbar"?
>> Thanks.
>> Roy  Thomas.
>
> -- 
> D. Jim West
>
> Biblical Studies Resources -  http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
> Biblical Theology Weblog -  http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:55:42 -0400
> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] b-hebrew
> To: roythomas at cwjamaica.com
> Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20050622.095543.-558179.0.gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:03:17 -0500 ROY THOMAS <roythomas at cwjamaica.com>
> writes:
>>
>> Dear Hebrew scholars,
>> I  am just a beginner. I  want to know and learn hebrew.
>> what  would  be  the best   translation of  " midbar"?
>> Thanks.
>> Roy  Thomas.
> _______________________________________________
>
> That would depend upon the context in which it is used as is almost
> always the case with any word.  No word is used in the same way in all
> circumstances.  It frequently is translated as "desert", but our concept
> of desert as a dry, sandy, barren place may not be correct in all
> instances.  Sometimes it is simply "wilderness" or "pasture land."
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> ___________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:04:49 -0700
> From: "YODAN" <yodan at yodanco.com>
> Subject: FW: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity
> To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20050622140510.D23794C006 at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> Quick response (which I sent to John Gray, who asked the question, but
> realized that it was not sent to the group - others may find this of
> interest):
>
>
>
> Referring to God in plural does not necessarily reflect a concept of a
> plurality of God, but rather a sign of respect.  Similarly to the use of 
> the
> plural "you" in French when addressing someone to whom one wishes to show
> respect (even someone one is not well acquainted with).  Some to think of
> it, I wonder if "you" in English used to have two different forms - a
> singular and a plural - that became one.  Does anyone know?  The use of
> plural when referring to God can also be viewed as similar to the way some
> people use the "we" language (The Royal "We") when they actually refer to
> themselves.
>
>
>
> "Comparing" God to other gods ("Who is like You among the gods...", i.e.,
> there is no god like You) does not reflect an "admission" or acceptance 
> that
> there are other gods, but rather an acknowledgment that other people 
> believe
> in other gods, but those who believe in the Scriptures believe that the 
> God
> of the Scriptures is the only God and no other god in whom other people
> believe is comparable to the God of the Scriptures.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> Rivka
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:24:27 -0400
> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: FW: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity
> To: yodan at yodanco.com
> Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20050622.102427.-558179.1.gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:04:49 -0700 "YODAN" <yodan at yodanco.com> writes:
>>
>> Quick response (which I sent to John Gray, who asked the question,
>> but
>> realized that it was not sent to the group - others may find this
>> of
>> interest):
>>
>> Referring to God in plural does not necessarily reflect a concept of
>> a
>> plurality of God, but rather a sign of respect.  Similarly to the
>> use of the
>> plural "you" in French when addressing someone to whom one wishes to
>> show
>> respect (even someone one is not well acquainted with).  Some to
>> think of
>> it, I wonder if "you" in English used to have two different forms -
>> a
>> singular and a plural - that became one.  Does anyone know?  The use
>> of
>> plural when referring to God can also be viewed as similar to the
>> way some
>> people use the "we" language (The Royal "We") when they actually
>> refer to
>> themselves.
> ________________
>
> Yes, there was a singular form of the 2nd person pronoun in Middle
> English which is no longer used.  It appears in the AV translation as
> "thou."
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> ___________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:28:00 +0100
> From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk at qaya.org>
> Subject: Re: FW: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity
> To: yodan at yodanco.com
> Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <42B97570.8090507 at qaya.org>
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> On 22/06/2005 15:04, YODAN wrote:
>
>>... I wonder if "you" in English used to have two different forms - a
>>singular and a plural - that became one.  Does anyone know? ...
>>
>
> English had a singular "thou" and a plural "you", but as in French etc
> it became customary to use "you" also for the singular, to the extent
> that singular "thou" has almost died out, remaining only in some
> dialects and used by some for addressing God - in an ironic reversal,
> "thou" which originally was the less polite form being used as a term of
> respect for God.
>
> But the Hebrew usage is independent of this modern (i.e. post-mediaeval)
> rejection of the singular "thou" etc found in most European languages.
>
> -- 
> Peter Kirk
> peter at qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk at qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/
>
>
>
> -- 
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:08:34 -0400
> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 13:5
> To: peterkirk at qaya.org
> Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20050622.110834.-558179.1.gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:23:38 +0100 Peter Kirk <peterkirk at qaya.org>
> writes:
>>
>> But this still doesn't explain the hiphil of QNH, otherwise
>> unattested.
>> I did wonder if this could be a denominative from QNH = cane, so
>> meaning
>> that "a man had me beaten with canes", leading into verse 6.
>>
>> -- 
>> Peter Kirk
>> peter at qaya.org (personal)
>> peterkirk at qaya.org (work)
>> http://www.qaya.org/
> __________________
>
> HALOT gives  QNN as meaning "to nest."  Would it be possible that this
> could be a hiphil from this verb meaning in the context that he had
> occupied the position of a farmer from his youth?  It would need to be
> 3ms with 1cs suff.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> ___________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:20:30 -0500
> From: "Stoney Breyer" <stoneyb at touchwood.net>
> Subject: RE: FW: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity
> To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <007101c5773d$ed8b0ab0$0a00a8c0 at stoney>
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>
> Actually, 'you' was originally (eow) the objective plural case of the
> pronoun which in the nominative plural was 'ye' (ge).
>
> I don't remember enough OE/ME to say what was used honorifically before
> the 16th Century, but by Elizabethan times, 'ye', too, was the familiar
> or contemptuous form; a superior would have been addressed as 'you'
> (which was, however, already, crowding out the other forms).
>
> Stoney Breyer
> Writer/Touchwood
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Peter Kirk
> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 9:28 AM
> To: yodan at yodanco.com
> Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: FW: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity
>
> On 22/06/2005 15:04, YODAN wrote:
>
>>... I wonder if "you" in English used to have two different forms - a
>>singular and a plural - that became one.  Does anyone know? ...
>>
>
> English had a singular "thou" and a plural "you", but as in French etc
> it became customary to use "you" also for the singular, to the extent
> that singular "thou" has almost died out, remaining only in some
> dialects and used by some for addressing God - in an ironic reversal,
> "thou" which originally was the less polite form being used as a term of
>
> respect for God.
>
> But the Hebrew usage is independent of this modern (i.e. post-mediaeval)
>
> rejection of the singular "thou" etc found in most European languages.
>
> -- 
> Peter Kirk
> peter at qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk at qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/25 - Release Date:
> 21/06/2005
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:30:59 EDT
> From: Bearpecs at aol.com
> Subject: Re: FW: [b-hebrew] Re:plurality & divinity
> To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <ea.6bdc1fae.2feade33 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> In a message dated 6/22/2005 10:05:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> yodan at yodanco.com writes:
>
> I wonder  if "you" in English used to have two different forms - a
> singular and a  plural - that became one.
>
>
> "You" was originally plural, and "thou" ("thee" in objective case) was
> singular, corresponding to German "du".
> As in German ("Sie") and French ("vous"), "you" was used not only as 
> plural
> but as the formal singular.  "Thou" was used in informal context, with
> friends, etc.   But it was also used in intimate context, with family; 
> and for this
> reason was also used to address Gd.  It is because of this  sense of 
> intimacy
> that the title of Martin Buber's book was translated "I and  Thou" rather
> than "I and You".
>
> One sometimes sees "ye" in place of "you" and I am not familiar with the
> history of that variant.  (I've often seen it in old translations of  the 
> plural
> imperative: e.g. "praise ye the L-rd".)  It is not to be  confused, 
> however,
> with the word in archaizing usage like "Ye Olde Widget  Shoppe", in which 
> the
> "y" in "ye" stands for an orthographic variant of the  old letter "eth" 
> which
> normally looked like a curved small "d" with a line  through the stem and
> represented the "th" sound in "the".
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:58:03 -0500
> From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph at email.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 13:5
> To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew at lists.Ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20050622155803.8D63A1CE303 at ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Steve:
>
> Looking at the context might help. Previous to the phrase in question, the 
> person in question claims that he is a slave of the soil, grammatically a 
> possessive where the soil owns the person. Often a feminine noun denotes a 
> generalized subject, while a masculine of the same refers to a specific 
> subject, so in context this could be translated as â?othis soilâ? 
> refeerring to a particular plot of land. Is this the only example in 
> Tanakh for )DMH / )DM א×"×z×" / א×"ם ?
>
> The verb QNH means to acquire and hold possession of (something) where the 
> acquiring part of the action can be by purchase or manufacture. There is 
> no equivelant in English, making any translation of this verb defective.
>
> Putting the two together, we get â?oI am a man who is a slave of the soil, 
> this soil has possessed me since I was young.�
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Miller" <smille10 at sbcglobal.net>
>
>>
>> Zech 13:5 but he will say, â?~I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the 
>> ground,
>> for a man sold me as a slave in my youth.â?T  (NASB)
>>
>> The phrase "a man sold me as a slave" is אָ×"ָם ×"Ö´×§Ö°× Ö·× Ö´×T.
>> The verb is causitive, literally "caused me to buy", which I don't think 
>> is
>> reflected in "sold me as a slave".  To sell someone as a slave is not to
>> cause them to buy.
>> The only translation that retains the causitive meaning is KJV, which 
>> says,
>> "man taught me to keep cattle", but I don't think that is a causitive
>> meaning of "buy", although it is causitive.
>>
>> Does "man" have to be the subject? Can it be the object? Could it be
>> translated:
>> for mankind He has made Me to purchase from My youth.
>> or
>> for mankind, they have caused Me to purchase from My youth. (treating the
>> 3rd masculine singular as the indefinate pronoun as in 13:9.)
>> or
>> for mankind I have been made to purchase from My youth. (replacing
>> indefinate pronoun with passive)
>>
>> thanks,
>> -Steve Miller
>> Detroit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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