[b-hebrew] 5 scrolls or 1

Read, James C K0434995 at kingston.ac.uk
Sun Aug 21 07:13:35 EDT 2005


Nobody is trying to prove anything about authorship or date.

My original question was an attempt to understand why the LXX has these five separations. Were 
these introduced by the LXX translators? Did the LXX translators faithfully translate five 
seperations which already existed in Hebrew culture? Did the LXX translators originally translate 
the torah as one book and the seperations were introduced later?

It's just that I have often heard claimed as fact that the torah was always on one scroll (or considered
as one book) and that the seperations are a direct result of the influence of the LXX. Yet BHS has 
seperations in exactly the same places. I was just wondering on what evidence these bold statements 
had been based and now it seems as though there is none. Jesus continual reference to the 'law' seems 
to indicate that in his day it was considered one work (whether it was physically on one scroll is 
irrelevant. I just want to establish how the torah was viewed (1 or 5 stories)).

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Yigal Levin
Sent: Sun 8/21/2005 6:42 AM
To: b-hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 5 scrolls or 1
 
This has already been discussed. All five books of the Torah have been
written on a single scroll and used in the synagogue for centuries. Such a
scroll is usable for ritual reading, but very inconvenient for actual study.
So yes, the Torah, once composed and conceived of as a whole, could have
been written on a single scroll. I just don't think that that proves
anything about the actual authorship or date of composition of the Torah.

Yigal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sujata" <shevaroys at yahoo.com>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 2:28 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 5 scrolls or 1


> True. By 2nd Century CE Mosaic authorship and single
> scroll were established facts and those that who wrote
> it down as facts believed those facts came down to
> them from thousands of years ago.
>
> If this tradition of Torah facts needs to be refuted
> today by researchers, should it not be refuted with
> hard evidence and not assumptions?  a) there should be
> hard evidence that the Torah was written over a long
> period of time by different authors that did not
> co-exist in any given time period or b) evidence
> should be provided that it was beyond the capabilities
> of people of that time to sew together (or carry) a
> single scroll that could carry the entire Torah. I saw
> a Torah scroll for sale weighing 25 pounds which
> shouldnt be too much for a man to carry.
>
> Best wishes,
> Sujata
>
> --- Yigal Levin <leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:
>
> > The "regulations" all appear in rabbinic literature,
> > written, at the
> > earliest, in the second century CE. By then, we can
> > assume, the Torah was
> > written (at least in some circles) on a single
> > scroll like it is today, and
> > the tradition of Mosaic authorship of the whole
> > Torah was firmly established
> > (in fact, it is assumed by Josephus and Philo).
> >
> > Yigal
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Sujata" <shevaroys at yahoo.com>
> > To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 12:55 AM
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 5 scrolls or 1
> >
> >
> > > When tradition says it was a single scroll, unless
> > > there is hard evidence that it was written in
> > multiple
> > > scrolls,   why should a researcher's "assumptions"
> > be
> > > taken seriously.
> > >
> > > Are there not regulations on how many columns a
> > > pentateuch scroll should contain? Would that not
> > > suggest a single scroll?
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Sujata
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jim West wrote:
> > >
> > > well yes there is.  unless we suppose that the
> > author
> > > of genesis is
> > > also
> > > the author of exodus is also the author of
> > leviticus
> > > and that he wrote
> > > them all out on one scroll and that example was
> > > followed from that time
> > > onward.  these books were, at some point, just
> > single
> > > books or
> > > fragments
> > > of books, correct?
> > >
> > >
> > >  or are you suggesting that they were written in
> > > huge
> > > multi book chunks?  even given the length of the
> > > deuteronomistic
> > > history
> > > (a multi volume "work", if you will) it is so
> > > extensive that no one can
> > > suppose, can they, that it was originally a one
> > scroll
> > > composition.
> > >
> > > Only the 3-fold method in Qumran and the 5 fold
> > method
> > > > known from Qumran, modern Jewish tradition, as
> > well
> > > as the
> > > > Septuagint.
> > >
> > > positing ancient reality from fragmentary examples
> > and
> > > modern practice
> > > seems a bit hazardous.  what we need is hard
> > evidence.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I have also received the following in reference
> > to
> > > your mention of
> > > Tov's book
> > > > and the "five scrolls" from Carla Sulzbach:  "I
> > > checked my copy, and
> > > indeed,
> > > > on p. 4 he speaks of Five Megillot. However,
> > that is
> > > in a section on
> > > the order
> > > > of the books in the "Hagiographa", the Ketuvim,
> > and
> > > ... he does not
> > > refer to
> > > > Torah scrolls, five or any other number, but to
> > Shir
> > > ha-Shirim, Ruth,
> > > Eicha,
> > > > etc."  I don't know.  In the Hebrew edition, he
> > > doesn't seem to
> > > discuss
> > > > methods of order of the books at all, at least
> > not
> > > where I could see
> > > it, so
> > > > perhaps it is an addition in the English
> > version.
> > >
> > > Well whoever added it didnt do a very good job of
> > > being clear.
> > >
> > > best
> > >
> > > jim
> > >
> > >
> > > -- 
> > > Jim West, ThD
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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