[b-hebrew] Punishment for sins "Samuel"

George F Somsel gfsomsel at juno.com
Wed Apr 27 15:36:11 EDT 2005


On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:10:05 +0100 "wattswestmaas"
<wattswestmaas at eircom.net> writes:
> Jack Said"
> 
> However in neither case, 1 Sam 15 and 2 Sam 21, is there any 
> suggestion that
> those who died had anything at all to do with the crimes in 
> quesiton.
> 
> Certainly none of the Ameleq alive at the time of Moses was alive 
> when Saul
> was alive.  2 Sam 21 does not even hint that Saul's sons, much less
> grandsons, had anything to do with the crimes of Saul against the
> Gibeonites.
> 
> While the corporate may get punished, it is the individual in each 
> case who
> actually suffers.
> 
> Response from Chris:
> 
> I have been following this thread carefully and since it diversified 
> a bit
> have not wished to answer even though I was at times tempted.  But I 
> really
> must say, Jack, that I have to reply to this one.
> 
> Surely it is noteworthy that you can not possibly know the crimes 
> that were
> being committed by the Amalekites at this stage.  It is so so very 
> easy to
> judge a situation when all you have is a snippet of information and 
> an
> apparantly HIGHER sense of what is Just and unjust in a situation 
> (and I
> have been guilty of that myself),  The crucial point is that we are 
> fooling
> ourselves if we really believe that we have a higher sense of moral
> rectitude when we don't.  There is ample biblical evidence to 
> support the
> fact that the amalekites were an opportunistic plundering nomadic 
> tribe with
> very little respect for others.  (and there were numerous 5th to 9th 
> century
> European equivalents).  THIS IS NOT A CASE OR AN EXAMPLE OF THE 
> OUTWORKING
> OF EXODUS 34:7!!!!!
> 
> As for the famine in David's time.  HOW MANY ISRAELITES DO YOU THINK 
> THERE
> WERE THAT SUPPORTED SAUL LONG AFTER HE WAS KILLED?  You can not 
> declare that
> these were all innocent people suffering because God wanted to teach 
> David
> something;  that is, I do believe, somewhat short-sighted of the 
> whole
> situation.  There are NO such things as human sacrifices in the 
> scripture,
> directly or indirectly, ordered by God in order to ATONE for a sin. 
> No Way!
> These situations have absolutely nothing to do with exodus 34:7.
> 
> People have remarked how poor Austria was that she should have 
> Hitler claim
> that land as he annexed it to be a part of greater Germany.  They 
> have
> remarked that the suffering of the Austrian people was not their 
> fault.  As
> true as that may be for HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS,,,,It was 
> the
> THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS who lined the streets to 
> welcome him
> that day!
> 
> How the returning amalekites would have been welcomed as they 
> returned from
> their blood orgies with booty for their families STOLEN FROM THEIR 
> HELPLESS
> VICTIMS.  How the Amorites would be cheered as they told of how 
> they
> slaughtered women and pregnant women at that and how their warriors 
> feasted
> and rewarded themselves daily with cruel acts.  I really could go 
> on.  But
> do not be so eager to declare a people innocent.   God used Israel 
> to
> Inflict God's judgements NOT because Israel was righteous but 
> because the
> INHABITANTS OF THE LANDS HAD HAD THEIR YEARS FULL OF THE REWARDS OF
> BLOODTHIRSTY CRIMES AND IDOLATRIES.   The fact that God may USE a 
> somewhat
> odd instrument or METHOD to achieve that aim is common in 
> scripture.
> 
> regards Chris
_____________________

Chris,

You state "you can not possibly know the crimes that were being committed
by the Amalekites at this stage" and "HOW MANY ISRAELITES DO YOU THINK .
. . ."  This is all supposition.  All we know is what the writer
presented in the text.  This is the picture he wished for us to have.  We
can make all of the suppositions we want, but these aren't worth the time
it takes to write this.

george
gfsomsel
___________



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