[b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole

UUC unikom at paco.net
Fri May 28 11:52:48 EDT 2004


Dear Liz,

> By written law, I do not mean a list of laws.
> I mean the knowledge that when you are brought
> in for interrogating that there is a real
> crime on the books that you have been charged
> with, that was there before you were charged!

In this sense, communist countries didn't have a legal system 15 years ago.

>IF you think that in countries
where there is Shariya law that there are these
sorts of safeguards in place, then well, try
living there.<
I did. Emirates, Egypt, Saudi are more rigid in law adherence than Soviet
Union.

Best regards,

Vadim

> That people cannot just bring you in off
> the streets for questioning, interrogation,
> punishment, without there having been a real
> law that has been broken. That does not
> exist in any Moslem country that I'm aware of.
> Nor does it exist in China. Perhaps Russia
> is getting there. IF you think that in countries
> where there is Shariya law that there are these
> sorts of safeguards in place, then well, try
> living there. This is what they have been fighting
> for in Iran since the Revolution. They didn't have
> it under the Shah, and they certainly don't have it
> now. That is what they all want, a rule of law.
> Best,
> Liz
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Peter Kirk [mailto:peterkirk at qaya.org]
> > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 7:58 AM
> > To: Lisbeth S. Fried
> > Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole
> >
> > On 27/05/2004 16:58, Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
> >
> > >> ...
> > >
> > >Dear Peter, No, they had no notion of written law, not in Iraq,
> > >not Iran, not Egypt, not Saudi Arabia. By written law I mean
> > >a law code that restricts the behavior of judges.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Well, what about the Shariah law which is based on a *written*
> > collection of hadith, supposed sayings of Muhammad? And Iraq had a
> > written constitution under Saddam Hussein, according to
> > http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/iz__indx.html:
> >
> > > Following the 2003 'Iraq War' of a U.S.-led alliance against
> > > /Hussein,/ the 1990 Constitution is no longer in force. ... The ICL
> > > Edition of the 1990 Constitution is still available.
> >
> > This constitution can be found at
> > http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/iz01000_.html. See articles 19-21 and
> > 60 which restrict the conduct of legal proceedings, and 64 which
> > specifies that laws are to be published in a written Gazette.
> >
> > Iran before 1979 also had a written constitution, although the Shah
> > largely ignored it which was a major reason for his overthrow. Well,
> > Islamic and modern law is not really relevant here, so let's go back to
> > ancient Persian, Jewish etc law.
> >
> > >Anyway, I'm saying that there is no evidence that these
> > >lists specify behaviors. I don't know what that means,
> > >specifies behavior. They are examples of justice, right action,
> > >truth, etc. They are examples that one should adopt. ...
> > >
> >
> > Well, they specify things like "Whoever strikes a person mortally shall
> > be put to death." (Exodus 21:12), not just an example that killing
> > people is wrong but an instruction about the punishment to be carried
> > out by the judge or the community. Or look at: "You shall not pervert
> > the justice due to your poor in their lawsuits. Keep far from a false
> > charge, and do not kill the innocent and those in the right, for I will
> > not acquit the guilty. You shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the
> > officials, and subverts the cause of those who are in the right."
> > (Exodus 23:6-8) Clear and specific instructions to judges restricting
> > their behaviour, surely?
> >
> > >... But they
> > >are not complete or exhaustive, and they are not meant to be.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > >I'm forgetting now what started this. I think Vadim was implying
> > >that it cannot br Cyrus in Isaiah 42, since Cyrus wouldn't be
> > >teaching torah. But if you translate torah as law, edict, but
> > >also right action, desirable behavior, etc. then there is no
> > >problem. Torah is just actions, like ma'at in a sense, or rather
> > >when torah is kept, ma'at follows. It is kinatu in Akkadian.
> > >Right action, justice, wise decisions.  But this is what law
> > >is, what nomos means as well. This is what data means in Persian.
> > >Darius and all the Persian kings speak of enacting data. That is
> > >what data is and what torah is. They are the same. Only torah is
> > >the data of YHWH, and data is the torah of Ahura Mazda.
> > >I think it's even used this way in Daniel. In Daniel you
> > >see that the dat is used for the law of the king and
> > >the law of his god. When you see dat there, just substitute
> > >torah, that is how I see it being used in Isaiah 42 and elsewhere
> > >(Ezra 7:25,26).
> > >Best,
> > >Liz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Well, I more or less agree with your definition of torah, and nomos.
> >
> > --
> > Peter Kirk
> > peter at qaya.org (personal)
> > peterkirk at qaya.org (work)
> > http://www.qaya.org/
>
>
>
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