[b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole

UUC unikom at paco.net
Fri May 28 03:33:14 EDT 2004


Dear Liz,

> I hope by "Jews of this time" you mean the Persian period,
> the period in which the text is set.
I'm not that sure. I believe that Is53 appeared much, much later. It's not a
confirmed theory, though.

>At this time there
> was no concept of written law.
Hammurabi?
Ur-Namma?
Torah?

>Torah is just actions, like ma'at in a sense,<
that's emet or shalom

>No, they had no notion of written law, not in Iraq,
not Iran, not Egypt, not Saudi Arabia.<
In Saudi, they adhere to shari'a. In Egypt, the folks are corrupted, but
otherwise concerned with the law. In Iraq, they had a Soviet type of
revolutinary law. In Iran, a mix of revolutionary and shari'a. Modern
government has to establish some kind of laws and force obedience to them -
at least, to preserve its monopoly of force.

>There is no case in which judges cited HC when making a decision, and there
are thousands of court cases which deal with topics covered by the Code.<
This is a good point. A concept of law-obedience did not exist then, as we
can see from numerous violations of the rituals by Jews. Laws were more like
guidelines.
I think we attach different meaning to the law. Your argument amounts to
rejection not of the written statures (unless they were forged later, which
is also possible), but of the law-obedience. That's reasonable.

> I'm sure it is Greek.
Why is this tendency of attributing everything to Greeks?
Remember Homer? The name is meaningless in Greek, but perfectly meaningful
in Hebrew. Just a suggestion...
I wrote an article some time ago on etymology of Caesar. The name is Hebrew,
not Latin.
There are the things in the history, which we understand pretty wrong.

>I have tried to show that the reading of the torah in Ezra-Neh.
and the concept of Mosaic law which should be followed by all
is an Hellenic invention.<
I can even add to this that Torah could have never been followed. Sacrifices
are practically impossible, visits to Jerusalem as well, taxes fall under
the Korey argument, and the legal system was construed the way to pardon
everyone. If this topic is of interest to you, I can email you few excerpts
from my relevant articles. Let me know.

>Perhaps a real legal system is Roman.<
Don't overestimate it. Too much of what we believe is a Roman system is a
medieval forgery. Wrote on this, too. Ever considered the summary executions
of Roman citizens in that supposedly legaliztic society, or how such legal
system could operate with close to 100% illiteracy?


Best regards,

Vadim

> There is no written law in Mesopotamia and none in Egypt
> until the advent of the Ptolemies. There is a lot of work
> on law codes, see my article in Persia and Torah for a review.
> The word torah should be translated like hep, like data, etc.
> I have tried to show that the reading of the torah in Ezra-Neh.
> and the concept of Mosaic law which should be followed by all
> is an Hellenic invention. That article should be out this fall
> in a special Transeuphratene supplement. There were lists of
> examples of just decisions, as in Hammurabi's Code, in the
> hp that Darius collected, in the Priestly Code of Leviticus, etc.,
> but this should not be mistaken for a law code as we would
> consider laws. The concept of no law except what is written
> in the torah is anachronistic for the Persian period. It may
> even be anachronistic for the Hellenic period. Perhaps a real
> legal system is Roman.
> Best,
> Liz
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> > bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of UUC
> > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 11:23 AM
> > To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole
> >
> > >Zot hattorah for the killing of the pigeon?<
> > Of course it's teaching here! Maximum, precepts. Or, the procedure we're
> > taught. In Jewish life, there is no law besides what is written in Torah
> > (unless we dwell on the modern Israeli perversion). You could see this
> > approach in modern fundamentalist Islam. Or, put it another way, you are
> > attempting to find non-existent difference. Jews of the time did not
> > distinguish between the "legal" (not heathen) law and Torah. This is how
> > Pharisees were able to secure hold even much later.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Vadim
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Does "teaching" fit every instance of the word
> > > in the tanak?
> > > Zot hattorah for the killing of the pigeon?
> > > This is the "teaching"? Or rather, this is the
> > > procedure, custom, correct way?
> > > This is the meaning of data, nomos, hep, also of
> > > torah, kinnatu.
> > > Best,
> > > LIz
> > >
> > > > It's a teaching, why?
> > > >
> > > > > Certainly,
> > > > > How would you define torah?
> > > > > Liz
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Liz,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We figure out the word' meaning from its established usage, not
> > > > > > theoricizing
> > > > > > about the Persian mental dichotomy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vadim
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > b-hebrew mailing list
> > > > > b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > b-hebrew mailing list
> > > > b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > b-hebrew mailing list
> > > b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > b-hebrew mailing list
> > b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>




More information about the b-hebrew mailing list