[b-hebrew] Isaiah 53: bruises?

UUC unikom at paco.net
Mon May 24 10:31:36 EDT 2004


Dear Harold,

Think yourself, don't refer blindly to the authorities. Most of them had
doctrinal agenda.

Look, dagesh hazak cannot be pushed out by phonetical transformations.
That's a rule.
Havurah is not an alternative spelling, it's a different word from haburah,
clear and simple.


Sincerely,

Vadim Cherny

> >Would you remind me of ANY instance when the transformations you describe
> >pushed out dagesh hazak?
>
> HH: I don't know how to research such a thing without considerable
> effort. Not that many words have alternative spellings, and then I
> would have to research why the alternative spellings were used. I
> told you I did not understand exactly why the alternative spelling
> was used here, and I gave what I felt might be possible reasons.
> Perhaps the alternative spelling was used for another reason
> altogether. But the fact is that the lexicons and commentaries accept
> that this was an alternative spelling for a word meaning "stripe,
> blow." I have checked three lexicons. several commentaries, and many
> translations.
>
> Yours,
> Harold Holmyard
>
> >
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >
> >Vadim Cherny
> >
> >
> >
> >>  >patah (as in haburah) is NEVER reduced to hatef.
> >>  >Besides, even if reduction would be there, dagesh would remain.
> >>
> >>  HH: You're right about the first part. I apologize. I assumed that
> >>  "haburah" had a qames at the start. The lexicon gives three alternate
> >>  spellings for this word, and it has no problem with dropping the
> >>  dagesh.
> >>
> >>  I'm not exactly sure why all the changes occur or why the alternate
> >>  spelling for haburah occurs here. This is the kind of detail I
> >>  generally avoid. I suspect it has something to do with the prefixed
> >>  preposition B. Gutturals prefer pathach before them, and also the
> >>  noun here is definite because of the suffix.
> >>
> >>  A grammar (GKC 27b) will say that in an open syllable the language
> >>  has frequently retained only a half-vowel where there originally
> >>  stood a full short vowel. (Actually the letter X at the beginning of
> >>  a word prefers hateph pathach.) That may be what has happened in this
> >>  alternate spelling for haburah, and it may be due to the fact that
> >>  otherwise there would be two adjacent pathachs because of the
> >>  prefixed preposition ba- in the word in Isa 53:5: WBXBRTW. Also, you
> >>  cannot normally have a short vowel in an open, unaccented syllable.
> >>  So the ba- sound before X needs the guttural X to close the syllable.
> >>  So the second pathach (under X) became hateph patach and the
> >>  following dagesh with B dropped.
> >>
> >>  With the dagesh and a pathach you have habburah. The hab- is a
> >>  separate syllable. If you go to a hateph pathach, then you lose the
> >>  separate syllable hab-, and I think the hateph pathach joins with the
> >>  following bu  sound. In Isaiah 53:5 I guess the sound would be
> >>  u-vach-(a)vu-ra-to
> >>
> >>  There is another word for "stripe, mark" that also begins with a
> >>  hateph pathach: XBRBRH (Jer 13:23).
> >>
> >>  You are doubting a word here that the lexicons accept. Delitzsch says
> >>  that it's the same word as in Isa 1:6. I would say you should invest
> >>  in a good lexicon. You would save yourself a lot of headaches.
> >>
> >>  Yours,
> >>  Harold Holmyard
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >Sincerely,
> >>  >
> >>  >Vadim Cherny
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >>  >To begin with, haburah is a different word from havurah, since
> >otherwise
> >>  >you
> >>  >>  >cannot account for hatef (ex-kamatz) in havurah.
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  HH: The hatef is there because of the 3ms pronominal suffix that
has
> >>  >>  been added to XBRH in Isa 53:5. When you add a pronoun suffix, it
> >>  >>  often reduces the first vowel of the noun.
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  Yours,
> >>  >>  Harold Holmyard
> >>  >>
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